PHP Alive And Kicking – Episode 17 – TJ Miller
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[05:40] <v Mike>Hello and welcome to PHP Alive and Kicking, brought to you by PHP Architect <v Mike>and our partners over at PHP Score. <v Mike>More about them later. This is a podcast that explores the developments in PHP <v Mike>and what it’s like to earn a living in PHP today. <v Mike>I’m one of your hosts, Mike Page. I’m a developer at PHP Architect and my co-host <v Mike>is a long-time contributor to our magazine and now team member chris miller hi chris hey. <v Chris>Mike how you doing <v Mike>I’m good thank you i’ve been trying you’ve been chatting putting messages in <v Mike>the private chat on the left hand side but all of a sudden i can’t open it so <v Mike>i don’t know what you’re saying to me anymore i. <v Chris>Haven’t said anything in first <v Mike>There’s messages popping up but i can’t open it for some reason and i’m blaming. <v Chris>I guess i guess yeah <v Mike>Good good old good old uh restring um anyway today is live everyone so if you
[06:33] <v Mike>are listening right now, please head over into our Discord. <v Mike>You can ask questions of our guests or us if you want to know anything about us. <v Mike>But do head over there. You don’t have to stay there just for the show. <v Mike>We’re in there all week long. There’s lots of great people you can interact <v Mike>with and have conversations with. <v Mike>Please do like and subscribe to our YouTube channel.
[06:59] <v Chris>That is not the YouTube channel. <v Mike>That’s not the YouTube channel. <v Chris>That’s the YouTube channel. <v Mike>That’s the YouTube channel. There we go. I did mention in the intro there that we do have a magazine. <v Mike>We do have a discount code for our listeners. <v Mike>A live three will give you the first three months of a yearly discount.
[07:21] <v Mike>Digital that’s the one digital subscription uh so <v Mike>yeah do head over there check out the articles in the magazine <v Mike>um always great content content each month i cannot talk i think i should just <v Mike>stop no okay i’ll carry on we’re not gonna we’re not gonna keep swapping over <v Mike>like eric and john tried on on thursday no no no now you’re leaving it to me <v Mike>all right then okay as well as uh being a, <v Mike>development studio and having a magazine we also run an <v Mike>annual conference php tech tickets are now on sale for next year so it’d be <v Mike>great to see as many people there as possible but not only that alongside php <v Mike>tech we are also going to be running js tech same time same location, <v Mike>but purely about javascript and i believe the call for papers is still open, <v Mike>it is it’s into is it the first week of december it closes i.
[08:23] <v Chris>Have no idea because the dates moved twice <v Mike>Well at the moment it’s open so get <v Mike>those talks in uh if you’ve got some ideas <v Mike>about uh java javascript centric talks um we also have a swag store where you <v Mike>can get some lovely t-shirts hats caps all sorts of things um i think eric keeps <v Mike>adding new new things every now and then every time he comes up with something <v Mike>that he wants you’ll add it to the store so, <v Mike>um badgium if there’s something not in the store badgium he might actually stick <v Mike>it in there okay that’s all our housekeeping uh chris so so. <v Chris>Without further ado comment
[09:04] <v Mike>Uh not quite yet not yet a little bit early i know i’m in the uk and it’s in <v Mike>the evening but i’m not quite yet not yet no it’s actually the opposite i’m just tired so. <v Chris>We’re definitely not going to try and convert you to become a php developer <v Chris>at js tech right next to php tech <v Mike>Oh we’re not i thought that was the whole idea that was the plan we’re. <v Chris>Not letting that bit out in public <v Mike>I just i just thought we’re going to have to hire security to have php developers <v Mike>and JS developers in the same vicinity at the same time. It’s a bit scary. <v Chris>I mean, to be honest, PHP will just win, so it’s fine. And JSTech CFP closes on December the 1st. <v Mike>Ah, well, thank you. Thank you very much. So we better stop Nassim because we’ve <v Mike>got someone in the green room that’s sitting there patiently waiting. <v Mike>They were even dialed in to restream before either of us. yeah i was sitting
[10:02] <v Mike>here waiting when i came and i was in the early early so uh chris over to you <v Mike>to introduce our guest so. <v Chris>We have a fellow php developer creator of prism works at geocodeo does streaming <v Chris>does basically everything we have tj miller hey how you doing hey <v Speaker2>How’s it going <v Mike>Hi td it’s been uh it’s been one of these this is one we’ve been trying to get <v Mike>in the diary for a while yeah yeah and then once we finally got in the diary <v Mike>it seemed to take ages to actually get around to today but we’re here and we have we’re. <v Chris>Here yeah and of course the important things are caffeine yes absolutely yeah
[10:51] <v Chris>So, TJ, you’ve been watching this for a while. You’re going to know what the <v Chris>first question is. How did you get into PHP? <v Speaker2>Oh, man, this is such a super boring story. <v Speaker2>So this is many years ago, I think, like 2004-ish, maybe a little sooner.
[11:12] <v Speaker2>I was building websites with just like HTML and CSS for like lots of local businesses. <v Speaker2>I was in high school and I wanted a way to like templatize some of the work <v Speaker2>instead of having to like, you know, <v Speaker2>copy and paste over all the sidebar, the header and everything over to these <v Speaker2>like across all the HTML templates and everything. <v Speaker2>I wanted something like dynamic. And that’s when I like discovered PHP and was <v Speaker2>able to start templatizing some of these websites that I was building so that <v Speaker2>like the header and sidebar could stay static, but we could swap out. <v Speaker2>The contents on the inside of the page uh and like <v Speaker2>that was so cool to me and then <v Speaker2>like started getting to like database stuff a little <v Speaker2>bit i’m like oh my gosh you can like connect databases to this well that’s a
[12:00] <v Speaker2>whole nother world to like learn on top of it uh so that’s kind of like my entry <v Speaker2>point to php was just like needing some dynamicism to like that’s not even a <v Speaker2>word but uh i needed just to kind of like be a little bit more efficient about what i was doing
[12:17] <v Speaker2>and needed at some point access to data layers. How am I going to do that? <v Speaker2>Well, we can do that through PHP. <v Speaker2>So I dove further into that, but it all just got started building websites for local businesses. <v Chris>Yeah, so that would have been, at that point, you would have been using PHP Include. <v Speaker2>Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. <v Chris>I remember building websites like that. My entire website was just one big include file. Yeah.
[12:46] <v Chris>I mean, to be fair, that is what most of my code looks like now.
[12:54] <v Chris>So, interestingly, you seem to have journeyed on just a little bit from there, <v Chris>seeing as you’re now writing one of the greatest AI integrations in Laravel. <v Speaker2>Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah, we’ve come a long way from there, for sure. <v Speaker2>Like you know i i early career <v Speaker2>like i got started in wordpress doing like lots <v Speaker2>of just pumping out like marketing websites here’s psds <v Speaker2>turn them into websites um did that <v Speaker2>for quite a while and that’s where i dove like much much deeper into php and <v Speaker2>uh i was actually at one point um working on The agency I was working for had <v Speaker2>a CakePHP product that they were working on, and I hated it. <v Speaker2>Just the way it was written was kind of crazy. <v Speaker2>I don’t know. I just hated it. So I was about ready to jump ship for Ruby on <v Speaker2>Rails, but I decided to go look at the other PHP frameworks out there.
[13:54] <v Speaker2>So I went and looked at Falcon. It looked really interesting. <v Speaker2>I was thinking about going down that route. <v Speaker2>And then I discovered Laravel. And I was blown away. I’m like, <v Speaker2>you could write PHP this way? <v Speaker2>That changed everything for me. And from that point on, I just made a commitment <v Speaker2>to be inside of PHP and work with it explicitly ever since.
[14:19] <v Chris>Yeah cake php is an interesting one isn’t it you either love it or hate it and nowhere in between
[14:28] <v Speaker2>Yeah i haven’t looked at it since um but <v Speaker2>it was the i think the one thing that drove me <v Speaker2>crazy about it uh and this was all like pre-composer and everything too um but <v Speaker2>what drove me crazy about it is like the the developer that worked on it at <v Speaker2>the time kind of made it his life’s mission to make the templating engine was <v Speaker2>like an object-oriented templating engine that you could opt into. <v Speaker2>And he tried to make every template like a single echo call. <v Speaker2>So it was these deeply nested, chained, like this div, this span, <v Speaker2>like just nested all the way down into a single echo statement for like building <v Speaker2>out an entire templated page. And so that just drove me insane. <v Chris>Yeah. Yeah, that is not how you use templating. <v Speaker2>Yeah, it was fun to play some code golf with it, but it was very frustrating
[15:23] <v Speaker2>when it was like, yeah, you got to add a whole new div in here to do some styling. <v Speaker2>Oh no, like where the hell is this closing bracket going to go? <v Chris>25 files is further on, obviously. <v Speaker2>Yeah, basically.
[15:37] <v Chris>Yes, I have worked on sites like that. They’re interesting beasts to work on. <v Chris>When you’re looking at code and you’re going right, I know that the other half <v Chris>of this is somewhere but it isn’t in this file or that one or that one and by <v Chris>the time you’ve got halfway down the list it’s like where did I even start
[16:00] <v Speaker2>Yep. I don’t know what I would do without my find files in NeoVim. <v Speaker2>I don’t look through directories ever anymore. It’s just, yeah, <v Speaker2>start finding me a file, fuzzy finding it, or I’ll grab through it and find it. <v Speaker2>But yeah, back then I didn’t have any of those tools. So it was definitely like <v Speaker2>clicking through and deep, deep searching nested files. <v Chris>And of course, not knowing how to search inside the file. You’re having to read the whole thing. Yep. <v Speaker2>Oh, yeah. <v Chris>So so when did you learn how to quit them <v Speaker2>Uh very early on i <v Speaker2>uh my early even before <v Speaker2>i really started building websites uh my grandmother <v Speaker2>had given me an old laptop and i just <v Speaker2>started like playing with dos like yeah like let <v Speaker2>me let me get into the command line and felt like such a cool little hacker that
[16:50] <v Speaker2>i could like list directories and stuff and uh kind of broke into like nano <v Speaker2>and vim from there like as soon as i got into linux and he got got stuck once <v Speaker2>figured out how to get out of it and uh but i was hooked i’ve been a vim and neo vim user for
[17:09] <v Speaker2>15 20 years maybe 20 years now so big fan i got hooked i <v Chris>Think the thing i like about it is the fact that it is so customizable if you <v Chris>want to change something about it go ahead you can just change it it’s fine <v Speaker2>Yeah it’s funny to go through like my vim config has evolved a lot over the <v Speaker2>years but uh there are there are key bindings that have been in there for yeah <v Speaker2>20 years that are just so ingrained in muscle memory that it makes it hard for <v Speaker2>me to really use any other editor at this point yeah <v Chris>I occasionally i log into php storm and it’s like right how do i do anything <v Chris>And I keep doing like control S to save the file and oh yeah, <v Chris>this is PHP storm, I don’t need to do that.
[18:00] <v Speaker2>Oh, yeah. Yeah, I’m losing my leader key. I get so lost in any other IDE at this point. <v Speaker2>I’ve tried a whole bunch recently with all the wave of AI editors and everything. <v Speaker2>I wanted to try them out, give them a shot, but I’m so unproductive in them. <v Speaker2>Thank God for Cloud Code, and I can stick in my terminal and be a piece. <v Mike>Well i um i i use php storm <v Mike>but i for a while i did use uh <v Mike>neovim and um then i <v Mike>can’t remember why i wanted to try php storm i <v Mike>think it was because a lot of i was very new to neovim i’d <v Mike>followed uh jess archer’s um tutorial <v Mike>on um lara castle and how to set up <v Mike>neovim for php developers i knew <v Mike>there’s just so much more that could be done but i <v Mike>didn’t have the time to do the research and figure out <v Mike>how to get it working in near them so i just went go to
[19:00] <v Mike>php storm because there’s a lot of features built into <v Mike>php storm but one of the first things i did was um change <v Mike>over to use um vim bindings so <v Mike>i’ve got a lot of my bindings from near vim into php <v Mike>storm and that’s always still evolving and <v Mike>getting bigger and bigger and bigger as i’m discovering more and more <v Mike>things yeah there’s a lot more i can be doing i know that um but yeah i like <v Mike>i unfortunately it means that my neovim setup has been neglected for so long <v Mike>and i went to go and try and do some stuff in my dot files and my neovim just <v Mike>doesn’t work i cannot get it working anymore it’s like ah okay.
[19:42] <v Mike>So my, oh, just a quick one. <v Mike>I think that Eric’s got the call for papers for JSTech wrong because John’s just jumped in. <v Chris>John has said the JSTech closest on the 7th. Eric has said the 1st. <v Chris>So what we’ll do is we’ll say the 4th and then everybody will get them in early. <v Mike>Yeah, we could say, well. Yes, right. The 4th, but if, yeah.
[20:12] <v Chris>John is being very clear there it closes on the 7th of december right <v Mike>So it is the 7th okay unless. <v Chris>We leave it again <v Mike>Back to near them <v Mike>so unfortunately i went into near them the other week <v Mike>to try and do some dot file changes and just <v Mike>try to change a few text files which i don’t actually do <v Mike>very often outside of php recently um <v Mike>and even things like markdown i do i’ve been doing in php still but yeah um <v Mike>it’s all broken so i’m gonna have to call on someone to help me fix it all i <v Mike>did try to i did try to do it in uh get it fixed in claude i think but it just <v Mike>got a bit messy yeah claude. <v Chris>Has no idea how to do neovim configs i’ve noticed this i’m pretty sure none <v Chris>of the edit none of the staff there use neovim because there’s nothing about it <v Speaker2>Yeah and my all configed in Lua and
[21:09] <v Speaker2>yeah it’s it did uh I had an update I had to write a couple plugins for me recently <v Speaker2>to uh to offload a few like things I wanted to try out and it it did a pretty <v Speaker2>okay job but yeah it’s it’s not super well educated on configuring NeoVim with with Lua for sure
[21:31] <v Mike>So mommy and daddy are fighting. <v Chris>Yes
[21:35] <v Chris>john says he moved the conference because i’m speaking at a different move the <v Chris>call for papers because i’m speaking at a different conference which is a js <v Chris>conference and um but we could just do that yeah and we’ll <v Mike>Do that so we can follow follow the follow the argument. <v Chris>So the rest of this is just going to be watching john and eric decide who moved <v Chris>it um so mvpop says that claw code is actually good at neovim configs right <v Chris>what what’s your secret because whenever i ask it to configure anything it just gets it wrong and <v Mike>I’m glad you say that chris because i started to think it was me. <v Speaker2>Oh yeah <v Speaker2>yeah i’ve had it i’ve had to build um two i <v Speaker2>was experimenting with some like prism and ai stuff and <v Speaker2>trying to integrate it into like some neo vim things <v Speaker2>and i was having a really hard time with it so i
[22:32] <v Speaker2>had claude like knock it out it’s nothing interesting <v Speaker2>to have like abandoned the project at this point but uh it did a pretty good <v Speaker2>job being able to like put most of the things together and you can always point <v Speaker2>it over to the docs now and you know have it go crawl the docs and it’s got <v Speaker2>it’s got web fetch so it can go go crawl web pages so <v Chris>It was this the ability to use prism in neovim that you’ve abandoned <v Speaker2>Uh it was a way to <v Speaker2>it was a way that i could like get a popover window <v Speaker2>with prism output uh using like a php script invoked by neovim no and like passing <v Speaker2>in like con like buffer context and all sorts of other information so it was <v Speaker2>a i just wanted to see if i could do it and i could do it and then I’ve never used it since, <v Speaker2>but it was just kind of an itch to scratch.
[23:29] <v Chris>I really want to see what that code looks like now.
[23:36] <v Chris>I’m mad like that. I like seeing things that are just weird experiments that <v Chris>usually end up being something cool. <v Chris>You look at something like Knocklawed Code and Cursor. <v Chris>That started as somebody’s idea of what happens if we put AI in an IDE. <v Speaker2>Yeah, sure.
[23:55] <v Chris>And if you could put AI inside a good IDE like me of him, you end up it’s quite a powerful little tool <v Speaker2>Yeah it’s uh there’s much <v Speaker2>better like ai integrations into neo vim than than <v Speaker2>that it was uh at the time i was like i i <v Speaker2>have these system prompts that i really like to use these like personas and <v Speaker2>uh i i leverage those a lot through through prism i’ve got like a little open <v Speaker2>web ui app that i have like running persistently on my computer and then And that uses Laravel, <v Speaker2>that connects to a Laravel API through Prism. <v Speaker2>And so I can chat these custom personas without having to do weird things about <v Speaker2>trying to reset system prompts or other stuff. I can just kind of interact with <v Speaker2>them, just like I’d interact with pulling up a Claude desktop or something.
[24:48] <v Speaker2>I like to pipe a lot of stuff through Prism because I can just make them do <v Speaker2>whatever I’d like super easily.
[24:58] <v Chris>I threw that up because Eric said to one of the people watching on YouTube, <v Chris>come and join us in Discord. <v Chris>And they’re now in Discord, which is cool. Yes. <v Mike>On that note, I think it’s time to, hang on, find the right video. <v Mike>Okay, to our partners for today.
[25:23] <v Speaker2>Thank you to our partners at phpscore.com. Every app builds up technical debt over time. <v Speaker2>It’s the price we pay for shipping new features and moving fast. <v Speaker2>When we build up too much of it, though, it can start to impact how we work. <v Speaker2>Team velocity suffers, bugs become more frequent and take longer to fix, <v Speaker2>and everyone starts to get a little frustrated. <v Speaker2>The key to managing debt is to measure it. A credit score can help you understand <v Speaker2>how well you’re managing your financial debt. And now there’s a credit score <v Speaker2>for your technical debt. <v Speaker2>Go to phpscore.com to get a free technical debt score and monitoring for all <v Speaker2>of your PHP applications today.
[26:04] <v Chris>Thank you, PHP Score. <v Mike>PHP Score. <v Chris>Keep up, Mike. <v Mike>I’ll do the echo today. I was reading some of the chat. I was catching up with <v Mike>chat, but you know what it’s like for me. <v Mike>I’m always three or four messages behind.
[26:21] <v Chris>So am i and they’re usually my messages
[26:27] <v Mike>So um i think it’s a good transition to start talking about this package that <v Mike>you’ve been working on recently that’s got everyone excited how did that come <v Mike>about where did you where did the idea come from to begin so it. <v Speaker2>Started uh when i did the a little while before the laravel worldwide meetup <v Speaker2>I did. I forgot what year that was. <v Speaker2>I think it was a couple years ago at this point. <v Speaker2>And sort of getting ready for that talk, but kind of my journey getting into <v Speaker2>AI led me to a point where this was very early in AI. <v Speaker2>When I got started with it, it was maybe like six months before ChatGBT came out. <v Speaker2>And I just kind of got bit by the AI bug and I saw like a ton of potential with it. <v Speaker2>I’ve got like pretty severe ADHD and I saw so much potential for me to be able <v Speaker2>to like build things to help augment my reality and like things to be able to
[27:32] <v Speaker2>like help me through like day to day work life, whatever, <v Speaker2>through through AI and like the potential I could see it having as it got more powerful. <v Speaker2>And I didn’t know Python at the time. All the AI ML stuff at that point was <v Speaker2>pretty solidly in Python. <v Speaker2>There was some TypeScript stuff starting to come out. <v Speaker2>Langchain was getting popular. There was a TypeScript version of that that came out. <v Speaker2>But I missed spending all of my time in Laravel. <v Speaker2>I’ve spent so much time, so much of my development career has been spent with <v Speaker2>it. I love the framework, I live and bleed it.
[28:16] <v Speaker2>But I wanted to be back in Laravel and working on these experiments and continuing <v Speaker2>to learn more about AI and building these tool sets.
[28:27] <v Speaker2>I wanted to be back inside of PHP and Laravel, and there wasn’t really any tools at the time. <v Speaker2>So I decided to start working on a little framework. At the time I called it Sparkle.
[28:42] <v Speaker2>It was similar to Prism, but definitely different. It was an agent-focused library.
[28:51] <v Speaker2>Nowhere near as well-structured, multi-provider support, but it did support multiple providers. <v Speaker2>So it was kind of this early iteration of Prism. But I had been showing progress <v Speaker2>on it to Taylor, and Taylor had just like, we were talking about the AI SDK from Vercel. <v Speaker2>And he said, he just in passing was like, yeah, I wonder what a Laravel version <v Speaker2>of that would look like. And I sat there for a second, and the API just kind of hit me. <v Speaker2>And I sat down and started sketching out the API and how you would interact <v Speaker2>with it and how multi-provider support would kind of work, and then just started <v Speaker2>fulfilling that contract. <v Speaker2>So it was very much API first, and then backfilling the functionality to meet that API.
[29:42] <v Chris>Nice. So the right way range. You thought about the developer experience first. <v Speaker2>Oh, for sure. And then it’s always kind of started there. <v Speaker2>And as I’m facing developing a few new features for it now, it’s right back <v Speaker2>to that API development. <v Speaker2>It’s like, how do I want to make these interactions work? How is it going to feel? <v Speaker2>And I think that’s something that I’ve just gleaned from working with Laravel <v Speaker2>for so long, like that really clean, <v Speaker2>fluent, easy to work with, like where you start assuming you work with it long <v Speaker2>enough, you start like assuming methods are there, and then magically they’re just there for you. <v Speaker2>It’s a very intuitive thing to work with. And so I took a lot of that inspiration <v Speaker2>and applied that to the API of Prism. Yeah.
[30:28] <v Chris>And that that is one of the things that laravel always does the the developer <v Chris>experience is the first thing of laravel so much so that we actually for a while <v Chris>had people who would call themselves laravel developers and not php developers oh <v Speaker2>Sure i mean you see that in like the javascript community oh yeah yeah yeah <v Speaker2>like you get really like locked in like framework lock in um you know where <v Speaker2>that’s you learned PHP by working with Laravel. <v Speaker2>And I know a ton of people that that’s how they learned PHP was by starting <v Speaker2>and picking up working with Laravel and then they learned PHP from there. <v Chris>Yeah, and Laravel makes it easy to make that bridge because it helps you with <v Chris>stuff until you need to do more than the framework.
[31:21] <v Chris>And that’s when you start diving into into <v Chris>the more complex stuff of okay now <v Chris>we’re into business logic and how we that and then we’re into how do we do multi-threaded <v Chris>in php the answer is i don’t think you can yet yeah we’ve got nico on twitter <v Chris>saying thanks for prison oh <v Speaker2>Very welcome it’s it’s such a passion project for me. <v Speaker2>Like I, I love working on it. It’s, it’s something I like, I think about and, <v Speaker2>and I’m constantly tinkering with. <v Speaker2>So, um, very welcome. <v Chris>Do you know the point I realized that prison wasn’t your full-time job? <v Speaker2>Which was that <v Chris>When I saw an advert for a job at geocodeo that you were recruiting for. <v Speaker3>Yeah.
[32:18] <v Chris>So, yes, that’s when I found out that Prism wasn’t actually making you any money. <v Speaker2>No, I do have a handful of sponsors that I deeply appreciate and I’m very thankful for. <v Speaker2>But I chew through a ton of tokens every month, like running tests and experiments <v Speaker2>and trying to push Prism further. <v Speaker2>And even just driving out a new provider or testing with Gemini 3.0 Pro that <v Speaker2>came out, there were a bunch of changes in the API that kind of needed to be made. <v Speaker2>And we’re still working through those with other contributors because it’s just <v Speaker2>not a model and provider that I use very often. <v Speaker2>So I don’t have a lot of reasons to be testing it. So there’s been a lot of <v Speaker2>really solid contributors coming back in and bringing more support for Gemini, <v Speaker2>but I have to manually test all of that stuff too.
[33:15] <v Speaker2>So I’ve chewed through a ton of tokens with Google over the last month or so, <v Speaker2>driving out functionality, then they drop a new model, and then I got to go test all of that stuff. <v Speaker2>So the sponsorships go a long way, but it’s far from being a full-time gig. <v Chris>Yeah and any sponsorship is going to help <v Speaker2>And oh it makes such a huge difference for sure <v Speaker2>like if i could get to a point like i think for <v Speaker2>me the dream would be to be able to make enough in sponsorships that i could <v Speaker2>like maybe drop a day a week at geocodeo like be able to just like just dedicate <v Speaker2>fridays to prism all day every week you know like that would be awesome if i <v Speaker2>could get to that point um but we’ll see or <v Chris>Talk taylor into taking it on this first party <v Speaker2>Oh sure
[34:08] <v Mike>Yeah i mean i i’m you say about you you churn through <v Mike>uh lots of credits i i i can <v Mike>imagine because i we’ve um chat <v Mike>gpt i’ve only got the free account and i’m always running out i’m always asking <v Mike>random questions and it’s just things i come up with i just like ask it a question <v Mike>then leave it running for a little while and i’m going to do something else <v Mike>come back to it churned out and i’m always running out of credit so i can imagine <v Mike>you going through quite a lot. <v Speaker2>Yeah yeah i definitely chew through them and you <v Speaker2>know it’s it’s like spinning up <v Speaker2>accounts at all the different providers and like you know <v Speaker2>having to juggle all the api keys for everyone and <v Speaker2>you know it’s remembering which one supports what thing and it’s it’s uh it’s <v Speaker2>a wild time out there i mean look at the last week alone we’ve had you know
[34:59] <v Speaker2>three new premier models drop and with that new features and functionality, too. <v Speaker2>So it’s been a busy couple weeks with Prism. <v Speaker2>And like I said, we’re still churning through some of the API changes for the new stuff. <v Mike>Hmm. <v Mike>I can imagine. I hadn’t appreciated your thought really about the cost of all <v Mike>the testing you must go through. <v Mike>And I’m now thinking about the little idea that we were talking about just before <v Mike>the show that I’m hoping at some point, probably in the new year, <v Mike>to get time to play around with. <v Mike>I’m thinking, yeah, I’m going to go through quite a lot of credits just testing <v Mike>that to make sure it worked. <v Mike>So yeah, that’s very interesting. <v Speaker2>Yeah one of the cool things i found out recently <v Speaker2>i started playing well i started playing a little bit more with um
[35:50] <v Speaker2>olama and local models for test experiments <v Speaker2>because uh a lot <v Speaker2>of times what i’ll end up doing is like <v Speaker2>i’ll build a streaming chat app just to like get the feel for how prison behaves <v Speaker2>in there uh like one of the things i’m working on right now is uh like message <v Speaker2>persistence How can we make persisting these conversations through building <v Speaker2>chat apps a really clean experience? <v Speaker2>So I would be chewing through tokens, building that thing out and testing different <v Speaker2>configurations and different things. <v Speaker2>But I made the investment in a pretty maxed out MacBook somewhat recently. <v Speaker2>So I have the affordance to be able to run some of the bigger local models. <v Speaker2>And I’ve been pretty blown away. Like the OpenAI’s GPT OSS model is very impressive. <v Speaker2>So for building out integrations and like experimenting with stuff,
[36:53] <v Speaker2>I think you can get pretty decent mileage and like a pretty good idea of how <v Speaker2>a large language model is going to handle the task at hand through some local models. <v Speaker2>And then you can kind of upgrade to like test on some of the more powerful stuff. <v Speaker2>Or if you’re running into it, just like not being effective, <v Speaker2>you know, scale up a little bit, you know, try, try the next level up model. <v Speaker2>Because I think from the efficiency side of things, you really want to nail <v Speaker2>on using the smallest model possible to complete the task. <v Speaker2>So you can kind of scale up that way, kind of starting with local and then kind <v Speaker2>of upgrading through the smaller models. <v Speaker2>And the smaller the model, the less expensive they are. So you can kind of get <v Speaker2>away with, you know, sort of testing a little bit less expensive.
[37:37] <v Speaker2>And you can also kind of through that process of like leveling up a little bit <v Speaker2>at a time as you’re trying to figure out what it’s capable of. <v Speaker2>You’ll also probably land on the smallest capable model for the job too. <v Chris>Yeah. <v Mike>Yeah, that’s really interesting, really helpful advice. <v Chris>And a lot of people don’t realize you can even do that in some of the IDEs like <v Chris>Claw Code. You can actually tell it which one to use.
[38:04] <v Speaker2>It was either yesterday uh tight article on their blog about how to use like <v Speaker2>olama and self-hosted so that’s that’s like a great resource for kind of like <v Speaker2>getting into that as well oh <v Chris>Definitely so we’ve had a lot of conversation in a very short space of time which is good <v Chris>um first up is jimmy um who <v Chris>has a question i’m a php developer 15 years i’m sure i know other languages <v Chris>i’ve gone with assembly and c now i’m tired with the bullies of php i see js <v Chris>like react and other stuff very complicated i’ve got the impression some juniors <v Chris>don’t see php because php is old and not the actual hype <v Speaker2>Oh man there is this <v Speaker2>is so loaded um yeah yeah <v Speaker2>this is this is a gold mine of of of <v Speaker2>stuff for like hot takes around php like i i <v Speaker2>definitely think php suffers from an image problem uh
[39:08] <v Speaker2>i’ve thought that for a long time like that’s one <v Speaker2>of the things that i appreciate about Laravel and the Laravel community is like <v Speaker2>I think everyone really pushes hard to like elevate the language alongside like <v Speaker2>the the frameworks and like you don’t you don’t get to be using PHP without <v Speaker2>you know using a framework at this point for a lot of things so um
[39:32] <v Speaker2>I think a lot of PHP suffers from an image problem. And I think we suffer because of that. <v Speaker2>We end up sort of suffering at the top of the funnel, right? <v Speaker2>When we get new junior devs and people entering the industry, <v Speaker2>like we suffer at that top of the funnel. <v Speaker2>And that’s where like JS is kind of snagging everyone at this point. <v Speaker2>It’s like that’s where all the boot camps are like using like Python or JavaScript. <v Speaker2>Like I think that’s like 90% of the boot camps that I see. <v Speaker2>Uh it’s yeah i mean i’m based in metro detroit with a lot of like auto industry <v Speaker2>so we see a lot of like java boot camps around here too um but the vast majority <v Speaker2>of it is like javascript and python <v Speaker2>so you know we we as a brand <v Speaker2>php right we need to figure out how we can <v Speaker2>like capture at that top of the funnel and i think part of
[40:22] <v Speaker2>that is like sort of like the image issue um so <v Speaker2>i was like really happy to see with uh the 8.5 release like they had like a <v Speaker2>really nice branded web page for that i think that was like super clean i love <v Speaker2>how they approached that uh i think more more of things like that um are going to be helpful so and <v Mike>I think some of the image we don’t help ourselves with I’ve seen another one <v Mike>the other day where someone’s posting…
[40:58] <v Mike>Maybe in linkedin for example this one was in linkedin and <v Mike>the like the headline says something about php <v Mike>it was actually the question is php dead <v Mike>and there’s a massive sort of the posts then go <v Mike>if you extend the post there’s a big explanation why it’s <v Mike>not dead but the problem is no people are <v Mike>just seeing the is php dead and assuming php is <v Mike>dead that’s it they’re not going to open <v Mike>it up and read the rest of it so those things we’ve got to try and turn those <v Mike>around um and that’s kind of where the this this show was born from was a a <v Mike>me i was at php uk earlier this year and then there was a conversation about <v Mike>that about using more positive, <v Mike>languages language to talk about php and <v Mike>not keep saying no php isn’t dead we should just forget <v Mike>about that and not say that anymore there certainly don’t title websites or
[41:51] <v Mike>posts with those words even if it’s php isn’t dead people just read php dead <v Mike>they don’t get the rest of the rest of the sentence so i think as a community <v Mike>we we need to change the way that we’re trying to present, <v Mike>these posts aren’t trying to damage php and i understand that they are trying <v Mike>to encourage people but it’s not working because people are seeing the negative <v Mike>before they seem positive. <v Speaker2>I think it’s a little bit of like chicken and egg though too <v Speaker2>um i think those types of posts exist because <v Speaker2>there is this like connotation that it’s dead and so i i think it you have to <v Speaker2>be careful that it doesn’t get too cyclical but um yeah i don’t know it’s it’s <v Speaker2>been something that has been on my mind for for years as like someone who’s <v Speaker2>like passionate about education and like sharing this stuff.
[42:46] <v Speaker2>It’s like how yeah, how can we get get more people in the door because
[42:54] <v Speaker2>There it’s like just so advantageous <v Speaker2>like i look at like setting <v Speaker2>up ruby on it like even just from like a sys admin level like how <v Speaker2>much it takes to set up ruby on a server right at first <v Speaker2>how much it sets like takes to set up like php on a server maybe i’ve just been <v Speaker2>doing it for so long but like it’s it’s like an easy process to walk through <v Speaker2>and it’s like it’s well documented it’s it’s because PHP has been around for so long.
[43:27] <v Speaker2>Granted, with that too, there’s a lot of bad PHP around as well. <v Speaker2>But I don’t know. I don’t know. It’s been something on my mind for a while. <v Speaker2>And I love seeing that there is such an initiative now kind of across the board, <v Speaker2>internally in PHP, podcasts like this, the initiative for the 8.5 website. Like, I think… <v Speaker2>I think there’s a really healthy conversation going on about it now. <v Chris>And I think one of the things that’s helping, and you’ll know the conversation <v Chris>we had in Chicago, but one of the things that I think is helping is actually <v Chris>the marketing machine that goes around a lot of the frameworks. <v Chris>So you’ve got Laravel drawing people in because they’re good at marketing for <v Chris>themselves, which in turn promotes PHP. <v Chris>And then you got native php who just goes by the way we can do mobile apps now
[44:22] <v Chris>yeah it’s like okay cool and yeah <v Speaker2>And and with prism like i i don’t want to like toot my <v Speaker2>own horn too much but with like with prism like now you’re not bound to like <v Speaker2>it look at my use case now you’re not bound to python you know you want to work <v Speaker2>with ai not a problem working in php and And I know there’s a fantastic symphony <v Speaker2>package for working with AI as well. <v Speaker2>So it’s more accessible than ever inside the language to be able to be accessing new hot technologies. <v Chris>And you’ve got the official MCP SDK? <v Speaker2>Yeah, the investment from the actual PHP Foundation to be involved inside of <v Speaker2>AI. I think that’s so fantastic. <v Chris>And then you get some weirdo who’s started a series of articles in a magazine <v Chris>that’s published every month by php architect on the basics of machine learning
[45:21] <v Chris>in php so teaching linear regression <v Chris>and all sorts in php i have no idea who’s writing that series me
[45:32] <v Chris>yeah and these sort of things are all possible in php and it’s almost like we <v Chris>don’t shout about it enough we don’t it at the lowest level we don’t say actually <v Chris>all of the cool things you can do in javascript yeah we can do that
[45:51] <v Mike>Yeah. <v Speaker2>And if there’s not direct solutions with it, there’s a lot of affordances inside <v Speaker2>of frameworks to be able to do those things. <v Speaker2>So, I mean, you look at Livewire, being able to do that inside of Laravel gets <v Speaker2>you so close to the JavaScript experience for a lot of things.
[46:13] <v Speaker2>I think it’s a more exciting time than ever to be getting into PHP with all <v Speaker2>the things that are at our fingertips now.
[46:23] <v Mike>Yeah i mean um just to just to point on what nico’s just said about the php <v Mike>is dead title being a clickbait and when you then read the article it says it isn’t i get that the the, <v Mike>concern that i think a lot of people have i talk to is that people read that <v Mike>and they don’t click on it they don’t read the article to find out you’re. <v Speaker2>Just you’re doom scrolling right you scroll past the title <v Speaker2>you read the title but you’re not reading the article and so <v Speaker2>you see the post on reddit you scroll past the title and it’s like yeah it’s <v Speaker2>php dead you’re like well i don’t know is it but you don’t you’re not clicking <v Speaker2>through to read the article because we don’t have the attention spans anymore <v Speaker2>but you’re scrolling past it you’re seeing those titles like is it dead is it <v Speaker2>dead is it dead well now you’re starting to question it so i see where you’re coming from too yeah
[47:11] <v Mike>Yeah and there was another question but i now can’t find it there was it was um,
[47:22] <v Mike>yes that’s the one. <v Chris>So offs is joining us because he’s finished dinner and he’s done the dishes <v Chris>and he wonders if some kind of <v Chris>pr um which pulled in the python light llm model details would be a value <v Speaker2>Maybe uh i’d be open to like checking out the pr like we don’t have uh explicit <v Speaker2>light llm support inside of prism um i think if you’re going through it as like <v Speaker2>an open ai compatibility layer
[47:54] <v Speaker2>um you might have access to i i don’t know check it out <v Speaker2>i open the pr like i’ll i’ll be happy to take a look at it or shoot me a dm <v Speaker2>on any platform you go to my website i’ve got a links page you can find me everywhere <v Speaker2>shoot me a dm and we can talk a little bit more about it um but i don’t i don’t <v Speaker2>see why i’d be opposed to it yeah <v Chris>And he went on to say that he uses light lm a lot for prototyping and it includes <v Chris>all the stats and the costings i think that’s more what he’s getting out of <v Chris>the fact that you could pull out the stats and costings <v Speaker2>Yeah yeah you can um it we we do expose like all the like tokens and stuff that <v Speaker2>you’re using through your requests with prism but you’re It’s still on you to <v Speaker2>be like totaling and exposing them. <v Speaker2>Light LLM operating as a proxy to providers gives it that opportunity to like
[48:46] <v Speaker2>kind of build those stats up for you and store them.
[48:52] <v Speaker2>I’ve not used Light LLM in a long time, but it looks pretty nice. It’s come a long way.
[49:00] <v Chris>Nico wants to know if you’ve ever accidentally committed an API key. <v Speaker2>Yep, 100%.
[49:07] <v Mike>I think that’s a good everyone’s response yeah i. <v Chris>Definitely haven’t i definitely haven’t and i’m now going to check every repo
[49:24] <v Mike>And, uh, Marion. <v Speaker2>What is it? What is it? The, the BFG, uh, is that, is that what you’re used <v Speaker2>to, to scrub repos of things? <v Speaker2>I’m pretty sure that’s the CLI. Yeah. I’m, I’m, I’m familiar. <v Speaker2>Definitely committed keys. <v Chris>So Marion says, let them think PHP is dead. Um, I, I get your point, <v Chris>but actually I’d rather they didn’t think PHP was dead and came and programmed with us.
[49:53] <v Chris>Yeah. <v Mike>I mean one of the scary things <v Mike>I experienced was that being at the PHP UK conference <v Mike>when they were doing a panel <v Mike>and that was one of the questions I was talking about bringing in junior <v Mike>devs and before they answered the question they did <v Mike>ask anyone over the age of I think it was 35 if <v Mike>I remember rightly to put their hands up that are full-time and pretty much <v Mike>the whole wouldn’t put their hands up that’s a scary position to be in when <v Mike>you’ve not got anyone in their 20s and coming into into the language what’s <v Mike>going to happen in 30 years time, <v Mike>When all those 35-year-olds are now 65 and trying to retire, <v Mike>and no one else is coming back in. <v Mike>So I would say we don’t want to let people think PHP is dead. <v Mike>We want to bring in the new blood. We want to bring in new people,
[50:49] <v Mike>and that’s the way how society and communities thrive, is bringing in new blood. Yeah. <v Chris>One of two things will happen if we don’t bring in 20-year-olds. <v Chris>One the language will eventually go away two those of us that are in our 60s <v Chris>are going to be paid a hell of a lot more money there <v Mike>Is that there is a okay pitch piece did i. <v Speaker2>Know this is exactly why i’ve been all in i’ve been in the strat for years right <v Speaker2>i’m just waiting for it to die so I can capitalise on all the legacy code. <v Chris>That’s exactly how Kobol did it.
[51:34] <v Chris>I have seen Kobol jobs now advertised at £150,000 about $200,000 for editing Kobol. <v Speaker2>Oh, sure. <v Mike>I’m going to start googling some tutorials. <v Speaker3>Yeah. <v Chris>I will give you a clue. Anything that’s on YouTube about Kobol is going to be at least 15 years old. <v Mike>Yes, that’s fine. <v Speaker3>Yeah. <v Chris>I mean, it hasn’t changed since like 1985. Right.
[52:06] <v Chris>Nico makes a fair point. Cobol guys make bank with banks. <v Speaker2>Yeah, it’s true. Yeah. <v Chris>I mean, the real money’s in Fortran. That’s where you make the real money. <v Speaker2>Jeez.
[52:19] <v Chris>I was once responsible for writing Fortran for a very short space of time. <v Chris>Mainly because it was bloody awful.
[52:33] <v Chris>It’s like Python in the indentation of your code matters. <v Speaker2>Oh, yeah. <v Chris>It’s weird because it’s like got to be in the right columns. <v Speaker2>Oh, sure. <v Chris>No, my brain doesn’t work that way. Don’t give me columns. <v Speaker2>Yeah, this is also why I don’t like YAML, you know? Yeah.
[52:57] <v Speaker2>I do love YAML, though. I mean, I hate working with it, but I love it.
[53:03] <v Chris>I don’t know who wants to tell Marion. <v Mike>He can’t do maths.
[53:10] <v Chris>He says he’s from 89, so he’s 26 years old, in which case I’m only 30.
[53:19] <v Mike>Yes. I wish. I wish maths worked that way.
[53:27] <v Chris>I mean, we could just make up maths. <v Mike>I think I was doing that earlier.
[53:37] <v Mike>Or was it yesterday? I can’t remember. I’m lost. The last couple of days have merged a bit.
[53:46] <v Mike>Maybe I am drunk. Maybe that’s what’s going on. <v Mike>I sniffed the whiskey when I went downstairs. That was enough. <v Speaker2>There you go. Gotcha. <v Mike>It’s got me. Yeah. Yeah. So. <v Chris>So I guess the next important question then TJ is, are you coming to tech this year? <v Speaker2>Oh yeah. I’ll be there. <v Chris>Good. <v Mike>Cool. <v Speaker2>Yeah. Yeah. I missed a, I unfortunately, uh, I missed the CFP. <v Speaker2>So I don’t, I don’t think I’ll be talking this year. Uh, but I will be there for sure. you <v Mike>Have. <v Chris>Another cfp open <v Mike>Yeah what you should do is do a talk on php for javascript developers and put it into js tech. <v Speaker2>I thought about it i’m <v Speaker3>Not gonna lie
[54:32] <v Speaker2>Not gonna lie um i mean i almost thought about doing a like a versell ai sdk <v Speaker2>talk as well because it is such a similar realm that like i should be able to <v Speaker2>like pick up and run with it but <v Speaker2>But I don’t know. <v Speaker2>My JavaScript is so rusty at this point. I think I’d be doing myself a disservice. <v Speaker2>Like, try to do a JavaScript talk and relearn the language. <v Chris>If only you had some sort of system that you integrate with multiple AIs that would help you. <v Speaker2>I know, right? That’d be great.
[55:08] <v Mike>Yeah, just get AI to write it for you. No one would not. Yeah. Honest. <v Speaker2>Yeah, no. It should be good. <v Chris>You’re absolutely right. <v Speaker3>Yeah. <v Speaker2>I just got to memorize it, right? <v Chris>That’s good to go. No. No. <v Mike>No, no. <v Chris>What you do then is you go to 11 labs, you teach it your voice, <v Speaker2>And just get on stage and hit play, like DJ style, right? <v Mike>And then just go and sit in the front row and then ask yourself some questions. <v Speaker3>Yeah, right.
[55:38] <v Chris>Oh, I should have pitched that one. <v Speaker2>Oh, that’d be great. <v Chris>I may do it. I may pitch the AI talk <v Speaker2>Yeah it’s totally doable
[55:52] <v Chris>I think the funniest conference talk I ever gave was one on how to do conference talks. <v Chris>I said precisely nothing in the talk. <v Chris>It was just on raising your voice and lowering your voice. <v Chris>And all I was doing was demonstrating it with, and now I’m going to raise my <v Chris>voice and then I’m going to lower it so that people think I’m talking about something important.
[56:15] <v Speaker2>Nice i love that yeah <v Mike>So um we’re we’re getting up to <v Mike>to uh our time now unfortunately it’s been a been a uh a laugh and uh but we <v Mike>do have one more question for you yeah yeah that’s um what i mean you’ve probably <v Mike>touched on quite a bit of it already but what excites you about php now today or what’s coming up. <v Speaker2>Oh man uh there’s <v Speaker2>a whole bunch of interesting stuff right like i <v Speaker2>want to i want to play with some pipe operators a little bit and <v Speaker2>like brand new feature out i want to mess with <v Speaker2>those some more um that that’s an exciting <v Speaker2>exciting feature ad for me uh i <v Speaker2>don’t know i thought about this question a little <v Speaker2>bit um early on <v Speaker2>like while we were chatting before the show and honestly like <v Speaker2>the thing that gets me the most excited about php and
[57:13] <v Speaker2>like it’s the same thing that’s made me the most <v Speaker2>excited about php for years is just the community it’s it’s the people that <v Speaker2>are involved in it it’s the you know the the things that we’re doing like every <v Speaker2>time i go to PHP Tech or Laracon or something, <v Speaker2>I come back so inspired to do more and better things, <v Speaker2>especially now that I’m working with Prism. <v Speaker2>I came back from all these conferences <v Speaker2>so inspired to make it better and contribute more. I don’t know.
[57:55] <v Speaker2>It’s always been the community for me. That’s something that bit me early on <v Speaker2>in my serious PHP career when I got out of the marketing stuff and got into <v Speaker2>building real world apps. <v Speaker2>I went to Laracon. Let me check the badge.
[58:12] <v Speaker2>2016 was my first Laracon, so that was my first conference I’d ever been to anything. <v Speaker2>I walked away from that conference just so committed to PHP, <v Speaker2>to Laravel, to the community. <v Speaker2>I was just blown away by that. I’ve been to a bunch of conferences since then, <v Speaker2>spoke at a handful, and I just always come back to, for me, one of the most <v Speaker2>exciting things is the community. <v Speaker2>So if you’re watching this, if you haven’t been to a conference, try and get to one. <v Speaker2>PHP Tech is one of my favorites because it’s a well-organized conference.
[58:57] <v Speaker2>The venue’s, I think, great for a conference. I’ve always enjoyed speaking at it. <v Speaker2>But it’s such a great blend of, you know, you’ve got Laracon, <v Speaker2>which is very Laravel-heavy. I’ve been to a bunch of Laracons. I love it. <v Speaker2>But this PHP tech, I think, does such a good job of giving you the exposure <v Speaker2>to PHP as a broader language and the broader PHP community. <v Speaker2>It’s such a great entry point into that. So I think that’s a great conference to go to. <v Speaker2>Laracon, highly recommend. Love <v Speaker2>it. They’re all over. The Laravel Live conferences are fantastic, too. <v Speaker2>So if you can get out there and get involved in the community, <v Speaker2>highly recommend it. It’s, I think, one of the very special pieces about the language.
[59:44] <v Mike>Yeah, I love the fact that you said the community. I’m afraid you’ll have to <v Mike>forgive me. My dog is now barking at some idiot setting off fireworks. <v Mike>I have to say, if you can hear my dogs barking, I do apologize. <v Mike>But I wanted to weigh in here and not just keep muted because I’ve said this <v Mike>on the show before on other episodes, <v Mike>but the PHP Tech community was so welcoming to me when I went to it first time last year.
[01:00:14] <v Mike>I was obviously i was flown over as <v Mike>part of the team um and i was working on it but it <v Mike>was everyone was just just sitting there chatting <v Mike>away with you and you were you would be sitting talking <v Mike>to someone then you realize it’s it’s some <v Mike>some someone from internals or or you’re talking to derek or you’re talking <v Mike>to ben ramsey and you go it’s been ben ramsey i’m talking to and one of the <v Mike>big things i think from that from especially from tech um is that there’s no,
[01:00:51] <v Mike>there’s no cliques is what we would say there’s no sort of barrier between the speakers and the <v Mike>general public they’re going to watch the speakers mingle um <v Mike>or and there’s so many people there it’s it’s it’s such <v Mike>a great experience um i would highly recommend <v Mike>that anyone can go even if you have to get your your company to sponsor you <v Mike>to come over come over and if you don’t know anyone just talk to one of us you’ve <v Mike>seen our faces enough you know who we are we’re all we’re all going to be there <v Mike>working and tj’s going to obviously be there just come and say hi. <v Mike>And say hi to eric or john or any of any other <v Mike>team and we’ll we’ll introduce you to people um and <v Mike>i i understand what it’s like i i have um social <v Mike>anxiety so i know what it’s like trying to be in the in the <v Mike>in the building full of people i don’t know um and
[01:01:42] <v Mike>i had never felt at ease so quickly when i <v Mike>turned up to tech last year when i came to the first one <v Mike>um and i think it’s i <v Mike>think it helps that we we do over a spread of a <v Mike>few over three days as well so you start to see the <v Mike>same faces the next day and the next day you start talking to people <v Mike>uh not knocking any of these one-day conferences which <v Mike>have been to quite a few and you do pick up a lot of stuff <v Mike>you don’t get that social time to actually um meet people properly um i feel <v Mike>um although i the the conference chris was talking at uh was it last week or <v Mike>the week before um and i went a lot i went i’ve lost game yeah i can’t remember <v Mike>it was the the days are merging now um, <v Mike>I obviously met a few of Chris’s sort of people. He knows, because I didn’t know anyone there. <v Mike>And he’s just, and luckily got to chatting to a few people. It was nice.
[01:02:39] <v Mike>But I’ve found when I’ve gone to conferences on my own, when it’s only one day, <v Mike>you don’t always get that connection with people. <v Mike>But again, I’ve learned a lot from those conferences, so I’m not knocking them. <v Mike>It’s the brilliant to go to. um i wouldn’t say don’t go to them um you might <v Mike>be more easy to talk to than i am, <v Mike>and meet people but uh yeah no tech tech <v Mike>over the three days with the socializing in the evening um it <v Mike>i’ve not experienced in anything like it <v Mike>since um all the same so i absolutely absolutely love it and really really recommend <v Mike>it really recommend it to anyone um it’s a long flight from where we are but <v Mike>if you can get over there get over there so yeah submit to js tech because we’ll <v Mike>fly you over if you get selected not. <v Chris>Only fly you over we’ll put you up in the <v Mike>Hotel oh yeah well yeah we’ll put you in the hotel as well we won’t make you
[01:03:35] <v Mike>sleep on the streets you can you can have a hotel room as well you. <v Chris>Can if you want it <v Mike>But well yes it’s optional but yeah no definitely definitely uh get in there <v Mike>you’ve got a few more weeks before like that uh call and if you’ve missed it <v Mike>this year and you don’t get the, <v Mike>ability to come over there is virtual tickets so you can get a virtual ticket <v Mike>to watch the talks but try for I’m sure 27 is going to happen as well,
[01:04:08] <v Mike>it’s coming up to the stage where eric and john will tell me we’re never doing <v Mike>it again but they will still do it again i’m sure but yeah so try again next <v Mike>time and and come along it is it is a great experience um i mean. <v Chris>As stupid as it sounds going from not knowing a single person in that room other <v Chris>than to have met them on discord to sitting around a table eating sushi with <v Chris>tj and daniel colborne and it’s like what am i even doing here in the middle <v Chris>of chicago eating sushi with people that wrote packages i use <v Speaker2>Oh man i’ll tell you what like my like <v Speaker2>handful of best friends that i’ve the <v Speaker2>longest these are these are friends that i’ve had for the <v Speaker2>longest amount of time in my life um people that i talk to you like all the <v Speaker2>time uh i met them in 2016 at a lara con going out to like we went out to like
[01:04:59] <v Speaker2>dinner together like someone had just like posted on twitter that like yeah <v Speaker2>hey we’re at lara con we’re going out to dinner and i think I met Eric at the same dinner. <v Speaker2>It was just this wild experience where I went along for the ride on a whim. <v Speaker2>I didn’t know anybody at the conference beforehand and then walked away with <v Speaker2>four or five of my best friends. <v Speaker2>So it’s <v Speaker2>The magic of being at some of these conferences. For me, it’s been ubiquitous <v Speaker2>across Laracon, Laravel Live Denmark, PHP Tech. <v Speaker2>The PHP community, it’s so welcoming across the board. <v Speaker2>It’s not just PHP Tech, but just this community in general. <v Speaker2>I landed in Laravel Live Denmark. I didn’t know anybody. <v Speaker2>First time overseas uh and i <v Speaker2>left with like a whole bunch of new friends um it’s just like the scene like
[01:06:00] <v Speaker2>the php scene is just welcoming it’s friendly it’s inviting um you know i can’t <v Speaker2>tell you like how many conferences we go up to and there’s like gaps and circles <v Speaker2>of people talking like plenty of room for you just like walk in you know just <v Speaker2>listen in drop in um and yeah just <v Speaker2>you know you see the people out there that are doing live streams <v Speaker2>that are like you know talking if you find them just <v Speaker2>go like introduce yourself say hi like i think one <v Speaker2>of the the most rewarding experiences for me was of <v Speaker2>lara con this year was i was walking between the venue and the expo center and <v Speaker2>someone ran up to me and they were like hey let me show you what i built with <v Speaker2>prism blew my mind like just like somebody is using this thing that i built <v Speaker2>um but i had never never met them before they just ran up to me and was like
[01:06:45] <v Speaker2>hey you got a second let me show you what I built with Prism. <v Speaker2>And that was one of the more meaningful experiences that I walked away from <v Speaker2>the conference with. So yeah, just walk up, introduce yourself and say hi. <v Chris>Yeah. And I have yet to find a person in PHP who doesn’t say hi back. <v Speaker3>Yep. <v Speaker2>For sure. <v Chris>And that is one of the things that makes this such a good language. <v Chris>The community is the center of it. Like you said, you can’t not have the community <v Chris>in PHP and not see success. <v Chris>I mean, I can put a question on Twitter and it’s highly likely that the person <v Chris>that wrote the package I’m asking about replies to me. <v Chris>And that’s just weird.
[01:07:32] <v Mike>But also i think being involved in the community going to conferences and things <v Mike>like that how many people have got jobs through that those networking as well oh. <v Speaker2>My entire career was based on my entire career has been based on the decision <v Speaker2>to be involved in the larabelle community
[01:07:51] <v Chris>You’re gonna have to give us some context to this one tj yeah
[01:07:58] <v Mike>I think I might know some of it.
[01:08:03] <v Speaker2>I definitely didn’t crash at his place over the summer for a long weekend, <v Speaker2>and it was not creepy, mostly. <v Chris>Was this the weekend where you didn’t appear on the podcast too? <v Speaker2>Yes, that was definitely the weekend I didn’t appear on the podcast. <v Mike>Yeah, he just CGI’d you into it back in the video.
[01:08:26] <v Mike>Yes. okay um so um <v Mike>we do need to start wrapping <v Mike>things up um i think we could sit <v Mike>here for hours longer just chatting away and like <v Mike>a lot of most of our guests we’ve all of our guests we could carry on talking <v Mike>for ages so we will definitely have you on the shortlist for next year to come <v Mike>on the show we’ll catch up with you see what prism’s up to what new stuff is <v Mike>coming yeah if you want it if If you want to, we’re not going to kidnap you <v Mike>and force you to be on the show. <v Chris>You’re not. I clearly am.
[01:09:01] <v Speaker2>I’d love to come back any time. <v Mike>You know who’s good cop, bad cop now. <v Speaker2>Yeah, there we go. <v Mike>So, yeah, I mean, we’ll start wrapping things up. <v Mike>But, Tina, thank you very much for coming on. It’s been one of those episodes <v Mike>that we’ve been trying to get in. <v Mike>It’s not been very easy to find when you’re available to jump on. <v Mike>And I love the fact we’ve done live. <v Mike>With you and we’ve been able to get some questions in um and <v Mike>definitely we’ll get you in again next year and we’ll we’ll chat <v Mike>about all sorts um perfect so i need to bring the script up because i’ll forget <v Mike>something otherwise so um yeah so thank you very much uh thank you very much <v Mike>everyone for watching or listening or however you are consuming this uh the <v Mike>show um one thing we are I’m not going to share, <v Mike>have I got it ready, it’s there, it’s there,
[01:09:51] <v Mike>it is there, but I’ve got to remember how to share my screen.
[01:10:01] <v Mike>There it is. Ah, there we go.
[01:10:07] <v Mike>Speakers are starting to be announced for tech next year. <v Mike>I probably should scroll down the page a bit. I can’t see what I’m doing when I’m in this screen. <v Mike>But yeah, so we have a really good selection of speakers already selected.
[01:10:27] <v Mike>So if you haven’t got your ticket yet, Get your tickets and come and join us. <v Chris>There’s some blooming good speakers in amongst who’ve already been selected <v Chris>and there’s still more to go. <v Mike>Yep, yep. <v Mike>So keep an eye on the website. Have you got the link there to show? Chris, ready? <v Mike>You mean that one? This is going so smooth, so professional. <v Chris>We’re just learning from John and Eric, that’s all. <v Mike>We’ve got the best teachers in the world. phptech.io. <v Mike>Head over there. You can keep an eye on who’s going to be appearing. <v Mike>Also, don’t forget to join us in Discord. People are in there all the time. <v Mike>Uh including tj will be in there if you if you’re tagging me i’m sure you’ll answer yeah um i. <v Chris>Summoned him the other day <v Speaker2>Yeah if you summon me i’ll show up <v Mike>Yeah do you have to say your name twice three times it’s three you have to say
[01:11:23] <v Mike>your name three times before you show up five. <v Chris>Times into a mirror <v Mike>It’s like handyman right it’s that one right there’s so many different roles <v Mike>i can’t remember who goes by which rules it’s. <v Chris>Bloody mary if you want it three times into a mirror <v Speaker2>I’m i’m more preferential to to beetlejuice so three will work yeah <v Mike>That’s what i was going off there <v Mike>you go so discord.phparch.com come <v Mike>and join us for the chat and uh we’re loads of <v Mike>great people in there all week long and chatting along um so <v Mike>do join us uh if you’re on our youtube channel please <v Mike>uh like and subscribe if you’re not on the youtube channel go over there like <v Mike>and subscribe and you can see all the other episodes and the other podcasts <v Mike>that we we do as part of the same channel we have the main show on a thursday <v Mike>evening with eric and john got us
[01:12:11] <v Mike>which i don’t know what our schedule is anymore because it’s like it was. <v Chris>One out thursday i don’t know who it is yet <v Mike>Yes yeah we’ll be taking place <v Mike>we’ll have something going out on thursday taking place of the main one uh because <v Mike>our fellow friends over the pond will be celebrating it’s thanksgiving have <v Mike>I got that one right yep thanksgiving over there couple days yeah so we’ll be <v Mike>we’ll be putting something up on Thursday are we doing something on Friday as well Luke, <v Mike>That’s what it says. We’re just doing Thursday, not Friday. We’re just putting it forward. <v Chris>Not Friday. We’ll bring it forward. <v Mike>We’ll just do it more on Thursday. So we’re just doing one more this week. <v Mike>Originally, we were going to do one every other week. And now we’re doing two a week. <v Chris>Yeah. This is episode 17.
[01:12:58] <v Mike>And we’ve been going for three weeks.
[01:13:02] <v Mike>Okay. So that’s our YouTube channel. Don’t forget, magazine discount for our lovely listeners. <v Mike>A live three will give you the first three months of a annual <v Mike>digital subscription and we <v Mike>keep talking about it i’m going to say it again tech php tech <v Mike>26 do come and join us over in chicago it’s a it’s a lovely lovely week um great <v Mike>bunch of people as we’ve we talked we’ve talked about already so i won’t keep <v Mike>pushing but don’t forget jstech’s call for papers is still open till the 7th of December. <v Mike>TJ, 7th of December. You can learn JavaScript by then, can’t you? <v Speaker2>I think I can probably pull that off. <v Mike>There you go. There’s your talk. There’s your talk. How to learn JavaScript in two weeks. <v Speaker2>Claude, teach me JavaScript. <v Chris>Oh, God, no, don’t do that.
[01:13:54] <v Mike>Yeah, that’ll be interesting. And then we’ve got our swag store. <v Chris>We have. <v Mike>Head over there and you can see t-shirts and <v Mike>some hats and caps and <v Mike>things at store sorry store.phparch.com head over there and grab some swag for <v Mike>you and that is everything we have ticked all the boxes and thank you very much <v Mike>again TJ for joining us today thank you everyone, <v Mike>for watching live and we will catch you at the next one bye.
| Air date | December 2, 2025 |
|---|---|
| Hosted by | Mike Page, Chris Miller |
| Guest(s) | TJ Miller |
