The PHP Podcast 2026.04.09
🎙️ The PHP Podcast
April 9, 2026 | Guest Hosts: Joe Ferguson & Sara Golemon
🎙️ Guest Hosts
Joe Ferguson
Senior Developer at PHP Architect
Running for PHP 8.6 Release Manager (hands-on position, third attempt). Working on PHP infrastructure with Derek using Ansible and Proxmox. Fixed emoji Unicode support on people.php.net.
Sara Golemon
PHP Core Developer
PHP Foundation board member. Former 7.x release manager. PHP Appalachia organizer. Moving out of the country soon. Deep expertise in Unicode, internals, and language design. Vocal advocate for balanced AI approaches.
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Looking to hire PHP developers? Email support@phparch.com – Joe and the team are available for consulting, infrastructure work, Ansible playbooks, and code review.
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The PHP Podcast
Transcript
[03:01] Welcome to the official podcast of PHP Architect. Join us to listen to the latest news and tech talk from our conferences, the magazine, and wider PHP community.
[03:27] And we’re back and my mic is unmuted i am just doing it i’m good that wasn’t just i’m not that wasn’t just me no that was my audio is broken that was me uh welcome to the php architect podcast uh as you can tell our uh back door into eric’s computer is still active and uh we’re here for another week to talk PHP with you.
[03:50] This podcast is made better by our partner, PHP Score. We will talk about them a little bit more in a few minutes. Just some routine stuff. Feel free to join us in Discord. That is.
[04:05] Discord.phparch.com. I know these URLs. Join us in Discord. Sorry, said that again? I said it’s a tough URL, yeah. Yeah, it is a tough URL. Uh, so catch us, uh, or join us in discord. Uh, you can also catch us in Chicago in a few weeks, uh, for PHP tech. And if you don’t have your tickets yet and you would like to join, you can find a coupon code for, I think it’s a hundred bucks off on the PHP subreddit on our PHP. So John made a post there. I’ll make you go look that up to, uh, to get the hundred dollars off or the coupon, whatever the value is there, but come and hang out with us for a few days in Chicago, uh, with bunch of php people and some javascript people as well we’re putting on two different conferences uh within the same uh venue same same kind of track there’s a javascript uh conference uh going on or javascript a javascript track alongside uh the php tech conference,
[04:59] uh let’s see also you can hire a php architect and i have a fancy graphic to show you.
[05:05] Oh, here it is. Fancy brand new graphic. Eric just gave us this to talk about. If you want to enhance your team, if you have a development team and you would like to enhance your team without having to do the hiring yourself and interviewing and all that process, have a look at PHP Architect. We augment your team. We offer diverse backgrounds, whether that’s coding, hands-on keyboard coding, or just consulting, or doing architecture reviews, code reviews, whatever your business may need, whatever your team may need. check us out. You can find more information at phparch.com slash consulting. So yeah, reach out if you’re interested in working with us.
[05:44] I’m looking at that infographic. That’s very important. 42 millisecond response time. That’s the answer to life, the universe, and everything. Exactly.
[05:55] Thank you. I worked on that joke for like three seconds. Yeah. Well, you know, you were deeply involved, I see. Yes. So how’s the week been since we last got to do this? I think I’ve had eight hours of sleep this week so far. It’s been great. Yeah. That’s great. Jet lag and Atlantic flights fifth one of the year so far. It’s been, you know. Just love traveling that much, huh? Just how one rolls, yes.
[06:26] I liked your Macedon post talking about how it’s not that you have buried any bodies. And I was like, I got that joke and I was like, oh yeah, it’s funny. Sarah killed Eric and John. And then I was like, wait, Sarah just did flee the country. So did she? No, no, no, no, no. I did not allude to anyone’s death. Merely their, what is it?
[06:51] Kidnapping? There’s a word for kidnapping. It’s like unlawful detention or something like that. Yes, detainment. Yes, unlawful detainment. Unlawfully detained or something like that. Yeah. Which, obviously, I’m sure John and Eric are just fine. Oh, yeah, they’re fine. I’ve actually talked to Eric today and John’s I think still on vacation. So, which is what I’m doing tomorrow. I’m, I’m out of here. So yeah. Oh, good for you. Yeah. So I got the place for myself next week. Yeah. I don’t know. They may. Well, if the hack holds, we’ll see. Well, the trick is that Eric’s trying to clear it out using agentic AI, and he doesn’t realize that’s what caused it in the first place. Oh, man. Eric is going to have a good story when he gets back with agentic AI and the issues we’ve been having with our Alfred bot and the PHP architect slacks. I’ll let him tell the story when he gets back, but it’s going to be interesting.
[07:53] I can’t wait to hear this. Yes. So I guess we can start by covering some stuff that’s been going on in internals. I guess there’s some interesting things. I think the biggest thing for me or the, I don’t know, I think it’s a really big deal because when I got involved in open source in the late 90s, early 2000s, it was all about the license. And it was all about MIT license, BSD licenses. And to be quite honest, I am not a license expert other than I know if I slap MIT on it, somebody can’t make money on it. And I don’t have to do anything, but I don’t want to with it. And I’m sure there’s tons more onto that. I know a lot of people, a lot of much smarter people in the community have been working on this. But this is something that Ben Ramsey took to heart and put a ton of work in is there’s a license change RFC and it passed is what I’m talking about. And we’ll have two externals. I will share that in Discord. But essentially, what passed today was,
[08:58] or passed this past week, was the license update for PHP. It used, I think, Sarah, you’ve had some notes here. You can probably explain this better than I can. I mean, I’m very excited about this. Like, I’m actually for this. I’m in favor of this. But I’m going to say that right before I say that, kind of seal license. And the reason for that is not the license, but it is how the control of the license was held previous to this. It was sort of an accidental safety mechanism for PHP. And it’s okay that it’s gone. It’s not like the end of the world thing. But early on in PHP’s history, in order to sort of have a holder for the license to PHP…
[09:47] They created this PHP group, and it was the people who were active in the development of PHP at the time, like very active, were just named members of this PHP group, and they just sort of co-shared this PHP license. If you’ve seen the words, the PHP group, that is a quasi-legal entity that was holding the PHP license at the time. And the best part about that was really quick, that group was disparate enough and spread out enough that you couldn’t make any change to PHP’s license if you wanted to. If Microsoft came along and wanted to buy PHP out from under us, they literally would be chasing their tails trying to make that happen because they would have to get every single license holder in the same room to sign the documents and make it happen. Technically, we no longer have that now because some of the work that Ben did was to make it so that actually, if we’re going to go to all the trouble of being able to make a change to PHP’s
[10:43] license in order to fix some of the actual problems with it, which we’ll get to those in a second, let’s maybe make it so we don’t have to do this again. Let’s make it so that if one of the older members of the PGR group dies, there’s not a question of who owns that bit of a license now. So first thing Ben did is he went to every single one of the actual, Ben Ramsey, by the way, Eric’s favorite person, looks up to him, he’s like a mentor. Went to everyone who was an official stakeholder in the license and that is both the members of the PHP group as well as. Perforce basically owns Zen’s bit of it because they bought, something from Rogue Wave who bought Zen there’s a whole chain of legal ownership and things like that went to all of the stakeholders and said alright look we want to make this change it comes with. All of these technical bits, all of these sort of like ownership bits, and we need sign-off from everybody and got all the sign-offs.
[11:45] So yay, PHP is now under old management, but in a more formal, measured way. And the important things, though, that got changed in this license wasn’t about, you know, control and authorization and the PHP group and things like that. The important thing was the fact that the php license php license version 3 slash zen engine license version 2 were not osi compatible licenses which sounds insane right for for a product as big as php and as open as php you’d think we would have an osi compatible license uh and we we didn’t what we had was um basically a fork of the apache license which itself was kind of a fork of the bsd license the modified BSD license but it’s got like all these extra clauses on here things like you can’t use PHP in the name of your product built using PHP and I forget what some of the other clauses was that was a big one that always came up a lot though mostly because a lot of people didn’t follow it anyway and we didn’t really push it
[12:52] because we can’t afford lawyers.
[12:55] So we’ve gotten rid of all those extra OSI confounding clauses and it’s just modified VSD license, a.k.a. VSD three-class license now. And so anyone who’s rule for bringing in external open source software can now say, oh, look. Oh, it’s like incredible. Yay. And that will take effect as of the next branch of PHP, which will be 8.6. So 8.5 going back to 4. point something is going to be PHP version 3 slash send version 2 license, and of course the ancient ones are going to be whatever their licenses so so we’re going to have a whole new marketing initiative to focus PHP sales on the enterprises that can now run the open source code right? Yes, yes, that’s exactly it. Well, you know, the foundation has a new executive director, so Elizabeth is going to be very hard at work getting all those enterprise content. No.
[13:59] I can’t say that with a straight face. It’s fine.
[14:04] But but you know private companies out there who do sell php support services can at least say to their clients hey this is this is ticking the box that you want to take so box ticked this is a regulation hurdle bypassed easily for them yeah yeah and and the thing i just want to say again thank you so much for doing all this work ben i know it was a pain in the butt it is not sexy it It is not, you know, it’s not generic. It’s not what you think of when you think of contributing to open source. No, but it’s very important. Yeah. And I did reach out to Ben. Just like contributing to talks.
[14:45] Yes. I also reached out to Ben to see if he could join us to talk about this. And he had better things to do. I think he was afraid Eric was still on the show or Eric was going to be on the show and he couldn’t be seen on the same podcast with Eric. I’m just kidding. I’m totally kidding. Well, after the restraining order. Actors training work, yes. We’re totally kidding. Ben was going to be out of town or traveling and was not going to be able to make it. So thank you, Ben, for all that work with the license and everything else you do. It’s greatly appreciated by a lot of people. I’m not going to lie. I was so worried you were going to do a Jerry Springer moment there and be like, and we’ve got him here right now. He’s coming out from backstage. And he’s going to come in like, you got all of that wrong. That was not what the whole thing project was. Start throwing shares all over the place the bouncers show up here’s Eric and
[15:34] John going what are you doing to our podcast.
[15:38] When I realized it’s the year of our Lord 2026 and there’s probably people watching who don’t know the name Jerry Springer and now I’m really sad oh there’s a couple good documentaries though, oh good okay we can definitely we’ll definitely get caught there’s probably new versions oh I think he was like the mayor of Chicago at some point he was which feels completely on brand yes, Yeah, absolutely. In other news of Eternals, there was this kind of weird RFC. It’s called the Allow Reassignment of Promoted Read-Only Properties in Constructor RFC. And boy, is that one heck of a title. I read through this RFC a handful of times, and I kind of understood it. And then I tried to follow some of the discussions, and I don’t know if maybe I’m just writing PHP wrong and I never run into these issues. But at the surface, reassignment of something that should be read-only sounds wrong.
[16:37] And this RFC did not pass.
[16:43] So I abstained on that vote, personally. The yeses and nos were about 50-50. I tried to get some comments beforehand to say, like, well, why did you vote no? Why did you vote yes? And that sort of thing.
[16:58] The consensus seems to be a couple of things. Number one, our logic behind reassignment of read-only properties is complicated enough as it is, gosh darn it. And if that’s a problem for you, you can just make it not read-only and then have a setter that knows how to deal with time of setting, things like that. There are ways around this problem in as much as it’s a problem. That’s it. I’ve run into this. I sometimes will make little pod classes where I want to have just a very terse description of what goes into the class, where I’ll just be like, construct a property promotion, it’s a single line, put the default in there, no problem. Oh, but actually, I want to make sure that whatever default is in there is also then like wrapped in some sort of encapsulation. Like you want a host name and actually turn that into like a URN of something. It’s a contrived problem. It’s not a serious problem. It’s not one that we’re
[17:49] going to notice that much. So I’m not that bothered by it, hence the abstention.
[17:58] But I was going somewhere else with that thought. I think one of the comments I saw was that it made a really complex thing a little bit clearer because, And I think, I think it’s, you know, as somebody who didn’t vote for this RFC, I forgot to hit the abstain button. I, you know, I didn’t vote one way or the other because I didn’t really have any strong opinions, but it felt like if that’s, if that feels like worth doing, right? If, if we have this really complicated thing that you have to do in PHP because of reasons, if, if an RFC comes along that makes it better, that’s a win, right? And, you know, obviously it’s hard to sell that to everybody in internals and try to campaign and try to get votes to approve your RFC for that. Because it definitely comes down to technical implementation and what does the resulting syntax look like. So, I don’t know. I’m glad to hear that it’s not like this end-of-the-world thing,
[18:52] that it’s still something people are going to run into, obviously, because we’re not changing the behavior. But they can still code their way around it. Yeah. That’s the important thing. is that they can cut the way around it. I don’t remember what I was going to say about it, is that, yes, my initial read on it was kind of like that. It was, you know, you can wind up with a much clearer syntax to do the thing that you’re intending to do, and the constructor itself is sort of, it’s pre-object. It’s not a real object yet. It’s not quite objecting.
[19:24] You’re not changing something that’s already been set. You’re in a process of set, is sort of the rationale behind it. But, For the case of inheritance, you’ve got a superclass and a subclass. If a subclass is still in its constructor, but the superclasses constructors aren’t even called, and you start changing one of the superclasses’ properties, well, should you be allowed to? Even though it’s only because you’re in the constructor? Or should you not be allowed to because, you know, that’s not your playground to sort of mess around with? And we can apply the same kind of rules as protected versus private property access there, but then we’ve added an extra layer of complexity into this thing that we’re supposedly simplifying. Because now visibility is not really visibility. It’s a pseudo-visibility of read-only overrides. And just from a user perspective, that gets complicated.
[20:28] Then you have to actually drill down into the implementation and with the implementation is like oh i’m setting something that was marked read only but it’s already been set so in my call stack am i inside a constructor but i’m in the right concern it’s kind of snowballs after a while both from the user and from the engine’s point of view so um maybe in the future maybe in the future we do that and we decide that it’s not that complicated and it doesn’t make sense but For now. Or something comes along that just kind of clears up the original issue of making what’s causing that to be problematic, easier to do. Yeah.
[21:05] Let’s see. A lot all the time. Yeah, absolutely. The last thing we have on our notes for internals is the latest PHP 8.4 release. Which I think is about 11 days early.
[21:21] Was it? Yeah, it was about 11 days early. That sounds about right. Yeah. 8.4.20.
[21:30] I put that one on there. Sorry.
[21:33] It’s great. Always, always happy to celebrate a new PHP release. Yes.
[21:40] It’s a kind of release that can just really open your mind, you know? Yeah, you go out to it and just hang out at a park and have just a beautiful, sunny afternoon. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Compile those opcodes, man. Compile those opcodes.
[21:55] All right. Let’s hear from this week’s partner and give me a second when I find it. There we go. PHP score. Oh, I should do the chat thing first. Probably let me… Yeah. There we go. Clicking buttons.
[22:10] And I’m back where I need to be. Perfect. All right. Let’s hear from PHP score.
[22:17] Thank you to our partners at phpscore.com. Every app builds up technical debt over time. It’s the price we pay for shipping new features and moving fast. When we build up too much of it, though, it can start to impact how we work. Team velocity suffers, bugs become more frequent and take longer to fix, and everyone starts to get a little frustrated. The key to managing debt is to measure it. A credit score can help you understand how well you’re managing your financial debt. And now there’s a credit score for your technical debt. Go to phpscore.com to get a free technical debt score and monitoring for all of your PHP applications today.
[22:59] Fantastic. Thank you, PHP Score, for making this podcast a little bit better.
[23:07] All right. So moving on with our topic, our notes for our topics. One of the things that I’ve kind of been involved with in my local tech community for a really long time is mentoring and helping people do mostly career change. People like adults who were working a nine-to-five, doing retail sales or whatever, and they were like, oh, I want to be a programmer and doing those kind of career changes and working with local user groups and local organizations. So one of the things that constantly comes up in those circles is what are the best ways to help others stay engaged with learning and increasing their skills? I mean, a lot of people get to a certain point and they get that developer job and they just stay in that developer job forever. And they never really learn anything outside of that core skill set that got them the job and keeps them the job. So how do we as a community kind of help? How do we help improve that?
[24:03] And how do we help people stay engaged? And one of the things PHP Architect is doing is PHP Tech. You know, come join a conference and meet other people doing the same thing you are or similar things. I like you slid that plug in there nice i think i’m contractually i think i’m contractually obligated, uh eric’s gonna actually take the podcast back if you don’t yeah.
[24:27] Um i mean i feel like i if you would have asked me this question a year or two ago i probably would have had an answer for you but i think two things happen one is that everybody is vibing, well not everybody a lot of people are vibe coding these days writing code that they don’t necessarily understand i know we’re not quite yet to the bullet point of crap on ai yet but we’ll get there um that is literally in the show notes uh but i i think that the people who are really interested in discovering new technologies and getting into new technologies like that is an avenue that they are making use of there and it can be a really quick and satisfying way to explore getting into a new sub area of the technology that you’re already on or a new area of technology completely, as long as you’re learning from it. But I also feel like the opportunity to have direct mentorship where somebody’s like, okay, I want to learn, maybe I want to learn to start writing a bunch of C++
[25:37] and I need to just make some diffs and submit in PRs and get feedback on them. I feel like that’s kind of dropping away. You’re getting less of that direct mentorship feedback of uh telling you like okay yes what you’ve done here will work it’s going to be on cubed and maybe we can get that down a bit but it’ll work um and here’s some feedback to help you kind of grow and and progress as opposed to uh you know hey claude write me some code that’ll that’ll do this and it’s going to give you a honestly a probably a pretty decent implementation especially with something uh you know basic like the kind of thing that’s going to wind up in an ON cubed situation.
[26:20] But you’re not going to learn it the same way. You might learn it a different way, but you’re not going to learn it the same way. My thoughts kind of like going wide on that one. Have I mentioned I’m low on sleep? That’s totally fine. And another thing that our, well, my coworkers, Chris and Mike do on their podcast, the PHP Alive and Kicking. See, another plug just sliding them right in there. I’m still getting promoted. Not at all. When are we plugging the PHP Roundtable podcast? I think if we keep doing this, Eric may like push that off on us. So I’d be careful what you ask for there.
[27:00] But our friends are my co-workers our friends chris and mike do the php live and kicking podcast and they often ask their guests that they have how do we appeal to the next generation uh in our show notes i put the youths because i’m a big joe pesci fan um so the you know how do you appeal to the youth where where all these code schools and all these hip viral methodologies of learning to code are all javascript or they’re python or they’re definitely not php and they’re definitely not something as prevalent as WordPress, right? How do, how do, how do us as champions of the language go out and get the next generation? And I, I, I, it’s hard. It’s, it’s really hard, especially in areas like me where I’m in Memphis, where there’s, there are no local companies that are bolstering or, or, or talking about the fact they’re using PHP. If they’re using PHP, they’re very quiet about it. And I know there’s several
[27:53] companies here using it, but they they don’t talk about it and i mean to be fair those companies also aren’t talking about their other languages either i mean from my perspective that has been so a question that we’ve been sort of struggling with since day one like no university well i won’t say no university but like certainly no few if any universities i’ll put it that way have put php front and center in their computer science curriculum because oh my god it’s a disgusting language and nobody should use it um i i say that in jest um they but they do tend to use uh either java or python are are their sort of like their big go-tos uh python being like a really handy scripting language uh and java just being something that was very clearly like just hard engineered from day one to be fitting very strict rules in how it functions, which is great for a teaching program. I don’t know how many…
[28:57] Bits of software are written in java these days uh a lot of new projects really yeah the health care industry is huge in java and dot net uh locally the the big technology employers here in town are are java uh the people who are doing machine learning or heavy python shops uh everybody else is pretty much dot net or or some kind of mixture yes why. I wish i i wish i knew and ultimately it’s because it’s because of fedex it’s because more recent well less recently now they laid off a bunch of people but international paper uh saint jude uh and and uh some of the some of these other larger companies in memphis that are the large technology employers they’re already using uh java i mean fedex has been a java and dot net shop for forever in various and then they acquire different companies they rewrite they they just kind of shove everybody into the same platforms now see as an explanation that makes a lot more sense because if if you’ve
[29:56] got and i know this is a load of word legacy java then it makes sense to keep it because if it ain’t broken on texan there’s a reason that the old space shuttles ran on technology that was already 20 years old you don’t want something that’s going to break like god can you imagine having to install an outlook update while you’re in orbit that would be terrible um and we’ve actually seen the artemis crew struggling with my with microsoft outlook syncing on their personal devices as they’re as they did their slingshot around the moon that’s the joke yes oh was it just personal devices i actually repass the headline, oh i’m sure it was more than just the personal devices i just cracked up when they were when mission control has to call up and say okay your email’s synced you can open outlook now i had this vision of it being actually part of the main you know rocket system right not Not just like, you know,
[30:45] somebody’s BlackBerry or something. There’s an Exchange server in the service module.
[30:52] Running on an old MP4 workstation.
[30:58] How do we get on that topic? Oh, well, we’re trying to figure out how to get more people involved in PHP. Oh, yes, yes. Sorry, what I was going to get to there. What I was going to get to there is that this has been something that we’ve kind of struggled with as a question of making sure, one, that there are people using PHP who are interested in the language to be writing new sites with and continuing to want the language to exist, and two, there are people around to continue making the language exist. Because I know, There’s a lot of gray hair around the journals. Not all of it. There are plenty of young people working on PHP these days, too. Young people listen to me.
[31:44] There are plenty of late millennials and Zoomers. Can I say that? Okay. Yeah, I think that’s safe. Working on PHP these days. And that is a good thing. Definitely when Nikita Popov came in, he was, I think, a college student at the time, which is great. I hope he’s enjoying LLVM, and it’s fine.
[32:12] Well, one of the veteran release managers for A6 is Daniel, and he is relatively young. He just recently, I met him for the first time at Lone Star, Longhorn, not Lone Star, geez. Wow, going back, Longhorn PHP this past year. I met him there, and he seems like an awesome guy, and he definitely brings a lot of youthful energy, and it’s great to see that. Yeah, yeah. I’m really happy to see that, too. The one other thing I want to add into that was that one of the sort of core focuses that Elizabeth King as the Foundation’s new executive director is to get a plan going to kind of evangelize PHP out there. Yeah, DevRel for the language, essentially. DevRel for the language, essentially. yeah um whatever devra looks like these days we don’t have a clear plan for what that looks like yep we have a plan to plan well she’s only been on the job a month or or two weeks so give her a.
[33:13] So, yeah, we’re definitely a problem that I think everyone’s aware of. And I don’t think it’s unique to PHP either. I look at the Python community and they’re definitely having similar issues.
[33:31] I think every language has this issue on some level. We kind of built boot on Java earlier, even though it’s a favorite darling of the educational circuit. I’m sure there are people having the same conversation within Java because they’ll be like, well, we’ve got this reputation as something that enterprise cares about, but the meat and potatoes are leaving us for these new fangled upstart languages. I don’t know. Spring Boot is huge in the teaching communities that I’ve seen and like the code schools and stuff. Java Spring Boot is huge there because it’s such an easy thing to say, all right, this is the back end. This is your front end. Go play. And people are able to just pick that up and run with it. So I think that’s something Java or somebody is putting money into Java Spring Boot to kind of revitalize that as a onboarding platform into the ecosystem. So I think maybe we need something similar, right?
[34:34] Well, and that’s what I’m saying. Like, that’s like that is sort of like the Java version of the response to how do we make sure we’ve got people who are interested in language still. The PHP version of that is going to be something different. Sure. Or, you know, it’s, yeah, a lot of people, I think a lot of people are having to think about this thought all the time. It’s not even a new thing. Yeah, for sure.
[34:57] All right. Are we ready to move on to the AI bashing portion of the show?
[35:04] Unless you have something you want to add in there. You mentioned Code Crew. Yeah. So in Memphis, we have a lot of organizations that are doing essentially job retraining. Code Crew is an organization that is very near and dear to my heart because I know one of the founders, Maka. And he has just done so much for the city of Memphis and done so much for people trying to kind of get kids involved in coding and being able to offer some kind of alternative learning thing that the schools aren’t able to teach, the colleges aren’t able to teach and they also teach some adult classes as well but there’s another organization called Tech 901 that also does primarily adult-focused retraining classes like they do a CompTIA A-plus class, they do an N-plus And they essentially are kind of not really trade skills, but giving people trade skills in the IT world to be able to go get a job working on hardware at a support center or a manufacturing plant and being able to give
[36:04] people those life-changing job opportunities or the skills to be able to get those life-changing job opportunities. And in an area such as Memphis, where it’s a very poor area, the median income is very low. And it’s great to be able to see people in my area be able to go take advantage of those kinds of things. And the community efforts. There’s also a huge community effort of essentially people like me who used to be user group leaders. We kind of pull our efforts into smaller groups these days, but it’s essentially the same effort of getting technology people together in a physical place once or twice a month to be able to talk about something or celebrate something and just be able to kind of that knowledge share and be able to have access to people of, hey. Joe knows this thing. I’ll go ask him about that. Or Brian knows this thing. I can know I can go ask Brian about a thing. And it’s just been really great to see that kind of stuff firsthand.
[36:57] So these programs, are they able to do this on like a not-for-profit basis or are these like private companies that are just seeing a marketplace for it? So I think it’s a mixture of the two. I know CodeCrew is a nonprofit and then I believe Tech901 is also a nonprofit. I believe they’re both 501c asterisk organizations. But CodeCrew actually has a curriculum where they actually do a code school and I believe that may be a for-profit entity. That’s more of a traditional, uh, you pay or you, you, you, you essentially, you go get training and then you are, and then you get, they help you get a job. And then for X amount of time, you pay back whatever the tuition was. Right. So it’s that sort of arrangement, which some of those arrangements were like really super predatory, but the model that code crew has been using is not like they, they actually have something that could be predatory or not.
[37:54] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And CodeCrew definitely does it. And what I would say is the right way of doing it, where you’re focusing on the human you’re retraining, as opposed to seeing that human as something to be taken advantage of, right? And Tech901 is very much a, they offer this different curriculum of classes. Like I mentioned, they do A+. They also do just basic computer skills. They have different one-off classes. a good friend of mine and previous co-worker is a teacher there he’s he’s was teaching he teaches python he’s teaching a lot of javascript stuff uh through through there and i’ve had a lot of friends go through classes there and just kind of trying to get they might have an idea of hey i might want to go be a programmer let me take this five hundred dollar three-month course and where i learned uh some basic javascript stuff and it’s it’s really kind of uh nice
[38:41] to be able to have that option for people at the risk of jumping ahead to the crap on the ai portion of some people living in 2025 2026 you make a great time to get in programming there’s tons of jobs out there for you right now um. But you said something else in there that I want to jump on, and it’s going to feel like a topic change. But you mentioned A-plus certification, which gave me this instant, erratic, chewy moment of going back into my childhood. I do remember in the 90s, that was like the big certification that you would want to get in sort of the IT field, not so much the software field. And one, today I learned that’s still a thing that exists. It is. Two, are people still getting Zen certified? Is that a thing that’s going on right now? I don’t know what the status of that is perforce announced new certifications didn’t they i i they might i want to say somebody somebody with the with access to the zen materials.
[39:39] I i yeah perforce zen they are they’re offering uh the php certification exams you can and you can also become a zen zen php certified engineer. Nice. So those are great. I’ve always been a fan of if you don’t have traditional schooling and you were just starting out, certifications are definitely one tool that you can use to prove you have the competency that you know how to do a thing. So whether it’s PHP, whether it’s Java, whether it’s Python, definitely go through and look at those kinds of certifications that may be out there for you to be able to kind of get a leg up on getting that first IT job or that first programming job because that’s usually the hardest thing that people going through, career retraining, or even people just coming out of college or high school that want to be programmers. Getting that first job is the hardest. And whether your resume is being reviewed by a human or a clanker, Keywords are magical.
[40:37] And you’ve got a certification on there that’s more than somebody who doesn’t have a certification on there. Right. And the organization that was behind the Laravel certification has also recently revamped their certification. So if you are wanting to get hired into a Laravel shop, that is an option too. If you don’t have a traditional four-year degree or you don’t have enough experience, definitely look at the certification route. It’s definitely something that a lot of employers will look at and say, okay, yeah, Yeah, this means, you know, Joe has the certification. He knows what he’s talking about in that topic. Said no one ever.
[41:12] If you have a ZEN’s PHP certification, you’ve got something I don’t have. Because I never actually bothered to take the test, even after helping write the first study guide. I went through several study guides and books, but I never took the exam. I was always too scared to take the exam. I did take and pass the first iteration of the Laravel certification, which covered Laravel 5. That’s because I was invited to kind of help contribute to some of the questions so I got to voucher to take the test and took the test and I was like hey I’m Laravel certified, so I think you hit on something really good there it’s too scared to take the test because yeah if I don’t take the test it’s just like oh oh no it’s fine I don’t need to take the test right but if I fail the test yeah that would be the worst case scenario, if I fail the test oh my gosh Eric is going to fire me oh my gosh you know besides i have a php6 certified shirt i’m
[42:09] not wearing it right now but i i’m also certified in php6 yes our good friends at rove continuing to the tradition of teaching and certifying people in php version 6 i that used to be my release day shirt for when i was putting out php releases i wear that shirt for good luck to make sure the release came out good that’s awesome.
[42:31] All right so now we get to poop on ai right if i don’t know why i’m censoring myself by the way i should be saying it’s time to shit on ai i know swearing’s okay on this podcast but i’m just like,
[42:43] Can we poop on AM? Are we going to offend some sensibilities? Are we scared of that on this podcast? I don’t think so. I don’t know why it’s on that specific.
[42:58] You had an article with that, though. Sorry. Oh, sorry. Yes. Oh, no, it’s Eric’s tweet. Yes. Eric’s tweet. Oh, and I have a thing I can do for this. Hold on. We’re going to get really fancy. You can even bring up the tweet. I am going to bring up the tweet. if I can remember where I put that browser window. There it is.
[43:16] And then I’m going to be a professional podcaster and do this whole screen sharing thing to allow that. And this is a really long tweet, but it brings up an interesting point. So I’ll read this aloud for the people who are maybe listening to the audio podcast and can’t see my screen. And me, I can’t read that. That is too small. That’s fair. It’s such a, it’s because it’s so, I can’t say that.
[43:44] It’s a substantial amount of information in this tweet. Well, and Eric’s never on some average shit. Well, that’s, that’s fair. So Eric’s talking. He’s just loud and passionate. He is. So he says, I’ve been thinking about this for the, for a while with the rise of AI. I find myself using tools like Claude Code more and more jump, then jumping through NeoVim, I believe is what he’s a big fan of when I need to make tweaks or to track things down. So I finally decided to say goodbye to PHP Storm for at least for now. I mean, it’s a product, so it’s not like I can’t change my mind and start paying for it again. I’ve always had the stance, and I’ve said it many times on the podcast, if you’re making money coding in PHP, do yourself a favor and invest in PHP Storm. And I’m not changing that stance, at least not yet anyways. He goes on to talk about how PHP was really easy for him to roll out, and he really does think it’s a good tool.
[44:31] But I’m going to take the bait and get myself in trouble with Eric and say, well, this is because Eric shouldn’t be writing code anymore.
[44:39] It’s probably what this is more about. I’m amazed you like writing code as it is. But I recognize this in myself, right? I do more DevOps stuff and more operation stuff. So my day-to-day for PHP Architects is very little time in an editor, unless I’m writing scripts or reviewing code, which is where I spend most of my time for PHP Architects, where I’m either writing playbooks, doing DevOps things, building scripts, systems, architecting things, or reviewing a lot of code. And I still use PHP Storm daily. And I also use it essentially as my text editor. So if I need to go make a note or something, I don’t fire up Notepad or TextEdit or Vim. I just fire up a PHP Storm project and I have a gazillion scratch files, which I’ve recently had to go back and organize. And it was a little of a nightmare. So I really need some kind of text editor tool that isn’t PHPStorm. But yeah, I get what Eric’s saying here.
[45:39] Sorry, I’m just suddenly stuck on this concept that like, oh, I don’t go to all the extent of firing a vim. That’s way too heavy. I run PHP Storm. That’s much more lightweight for my purposes. Yeah, see, in the days. That’s not to come up on PHP Storm. It’s a little better. PHP Storm is great. It’s widely recognized. It is definitely a resource hog, or it can be, especially in large code bases, especially if you don’t kind of slim it down or turn off some of the things that you’re not using. Oh, compared to them. Yeah, I mean, memory is so expensive, you can’t fire up big applications anymore, right? You’ve got to go back to the basics, people. But we have AI. 640K is enough for anyone. Right.
[46:31] So if uh yeah let us know let us know what you think or if you know if you’re if you’re finding that the uh, How do I say this? If you’re finding that the agentic lifestyle of development is more for you to where you’re not actually using tools as much as you would before, that’s an interesting concept for me. But I definitely see that position for Eric because unless he’s doing a POC or unless he’s debugging something, I can see where his day-to-day wouldn’t really involve a lot of PHPStorm. Well, even if he were a day-to-day coder, let’s forget the error piece of that for the moment. His point of you should always be reviewing the tools you use and are they the right tools for the job that you’re trying to do in your day-to-day work. I 100% agree with that. And I made the joke of like, you know, the 640K is enough for anyone and then is just fine for everything I need to do.
[47:35] It’s possible that I’m a little too stuck in my ways in terms of the tools that I use. I think the last time I actually honestly reviewed my editor, I think Bush Jr. was in office. It’s been a while.
[47:51] Bush Senior W, whatever you call them. But it’s important to review your tools. Absolutely. And don’t be afraid of investing in new tools and seeing what… I was a big Sublime Text envier. I was jealous of how fanatical people were about Sublime Text because I certainly wasn’t that fanatical about any tools I was using. And I tried Sublime Text. I spent about six months with it and got to the point where it was my daily editor. And I was like, okay. Just one day I was like, okay, that’s enough for me. I’m going back to PHPStorm. And I don’t know if that’s because I just had years, more years in PHPStorm, or if something just switched off in my brain. It’s like, okay, I figured out why people like this, and it’s just not for me. To each their own. I feel like you should definitely utilize the tools that you’re more comfortable with and definitely spend the time investing in those tools to make sure you’re more proficient, you’re as proficient with them as you can be.
[48:44] What was the size of the Sublime window? Like, were you using it for a year, 10 years? About six months, I think. Okay, okay. I can see six months being kind of like the novelty wears off and it’s time to really go back and think like, okay, am I trying this out because it’s new and it’s exciting? Or am I sticking with this because it’s actually getting the job done? Or I have this memory of trying I have this memory of getting to a point where Xdebug just wouldn’t reliably connect and I just like I was like okay I’m tired of fighting the tools I’m just going to go fire up PHP storm press a button and my Xdebug config just works, and that’s a lot of me and my development environment and my Xdebug configuration and a lot less on the tooling I’m sure the sublime has ways to do it it’s just that maybe that was the frustration point where I was just like nope I’m out I’m good. I did what I wanted to do here.
[49:38] I’m laughing because I think you just described every attempt of mine to switch to Linux on the desktop. I’m tired of fighting this. I want it to just work. I don’t want to have to debug why my audio isn’t coming out. Yes. For the thousandth time. But you know what? I don’t know if it’s the hardware or the old man in me or the old man that I’m becoming. But going with the System76 laptop and going with Fedora was like the greatest Linux on the desktop change for me for modern Linux on the desktop. Fedora if you don’t mind gnome based fedora is about as pure slash pretty opinionated linux as you can get without having to deal with something like gen 2 or arch where you have to worry about compiling your own drivers and stuff it’s like that’s a young person’s game i my time i would i would rather be like doing almost anything else than having to recompile my my wi-fi drivers i went through
[50:36] that i i went through having to reply having to compile my own linux drivers and And I hated it in the late 90s, and I hate it now. So I just feel like there’s better options that are out there now. I’m pretty sure the last time I actually compiled a Linux kernel, it was a version 1.something kernel. It’s been on a hot minute. Yeah. What are we even on now? 5.something, I think? Yeah.
[51:01] Nobody knows yeah see i don’t i don’t care anymore because fedora just manages that for me right, and the thought going through my head is like oh just run finger finger uh at kernel.org that’ll tell you um or wherever it was you and by the way kids there was a protocol called finger and you could uh just ask a uh a unix server for a user’s profile um message uh and the kernel project use that to announce what the current version of Linux was because who needs HTTP? That’s too much overhead. Too much overhead. Yeah, we’re compiling kernels. We don’t have any overheads. It’s an API, man.
[51:42] Yeah. The long-term release kernel, the current version is 6.18 with a projected end of life of December 2028. I think my fedora laptop is on five whatever the whatever the fedora 42 i think is the current release 43 is coming up 42 is the current release i think that’s five six unless they snuck in a six upgrade yeah right so 618 is going to be the same 619 is the debt right because they still do that tick tock where the odd minored is a branch so according to the active kernel releases page on kernel.org. There is 618, 612, 6661, 515, and 510.
[52:29] Okay, but the thing with the odd versus even minor version. That used to be a thing.
[52:36] I’ll have to look this up. Oh, Discord is doing weird things. I’m trying to… Yeah, there we go.
[52:46] How do we get into the Linux kernel? Because we were talking about wanting something that just works. Oh, right. Yeah, something that just works. Apparently Fedora just works these days. Maybe I should give it a shot. I don’t think it can in Linux on the desktop a shot. And if you don’t like GNOME, which I’m sure, I know a ton of people have reservations against GNOME, Fedora does a thing called Spins where they bake in different development environment or desktop environment, sorry, into the ISOs that you can install. So you can go get a Cosmic remix. You can go get a KDE remix version of Fedora. And that’s actually what a lot of people that aren’t using base stock Fedora are using is the KDE version. I hear people constantly talking about how great it is and how wonderful it is and all that fun stuff. Well, Kansas City is the one that I have the most experience with. It’s one that would probably just automatically roll into a news even though
[53:39] I haven’t used it in a while. But maybe that’s the problem. Maybe I should be trying them. Maybe I should be trying something else. I feel like switching from Ubuntu to Fedora on my personal machines really helped.
[53:53] I stopped having this weird stigma when I would go to work and work on Red Hat machines or Enterprise Linux machines. It was like, I didn’t have to do that mental translation between apt and DNF or yum. I just, it just like everything carried over and everything felt smoother. And I don’t know, maybe that’s just me being weird. It’s not you being weird because I did the same thing, but from the other side. I’ve always used Debian family of distros. So like, I know the Debian, demands that we just flashed what happened i think i disconnected well the thing i think says on air so theoretically we’re still talking to be loose type something if we’re still talking oh i see sarah’s still there on the street that’s weird okay i can’t hear sarah oh is this what happens to eric uh i will drop you know come okay maybe i won’t do that um all right well what was i talking about. Using Debian family. Yes. Whatever happened to me? Can you hear me now? Me? I can hear you. Okay.
[54:57] I was able to hear you just now, but you’re stuttering. Oh, Eric might be trying to hack the stream bath. He might be.
[55:07] Alright, Discord’s saying they hear me. Eric’s saying he hears me, of course, because my voice is coming literally out of the speaker and his computer right now, because that’s how we’re routing back. Yes. Okay, they hear us both. Eric hears us both. Okay.
[55:20] It’s all this talk about Linux. The elephants are protesting. Yeah, they’re like, we don’t care about what kernel version you’re using. We just don’t care.
[55:32] Well, I don’t know if you’ve ever tried to run PHP on Windows. It runs really well. That’s actually how I got .karma for PHP, was I had every intention of going and improving the Windows documentation, and was never able to get back to doing that because I stopped using PHP on Windows and the day job shifted everything over to Linux and I had no ability to do that anymore. And I was like, oh, okay. All right, then. But now I have the karma. But now I have the karma. And I can vote, yes. I did get two commits into the infrastructure repo with Derek. I found two bugs issues with the playbooks and got PRs submitted for those. I also added another PR that allows you to more easily run a local copy of all that infrastructure with the Ansible playbooks. Yes, I did see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I’ve got to finish my documentation on all of that. Speaking of karmas, the release manager vote, we have not talked about an update about that.
[56:39] Now, I freely admit, it’s the STV voting. That confuses me a lot. I had to sit down and do the math before this episode just to make sure I knew where people stand. The bad news is you do seem to be in third place right now. Oh, okay. So it’s changed. Okay. Well, as of about two hours ago, you, I think, have a few more votes in the first round directly to you. But the way that the leftover votes from Mateo get redistributed between you and Paul, more is going to him. Oh, no, actually, Paul’s actually slightly ahead in the first round, too, isn’t it yeah you should bring up yeah let me have it on a tad here somewhere.
[57:27] Um yeah in first oh yeah in first round you are ahead um on on votes between you and paul, um and in fact i think some no somebody must have somebody must have moved votes,
[57:47] you know what i’m gonna have to do the math again you might be closer to to type for a second now at one point a couple days ago i was in second but i also may have been doing my math wrong so we’ll see derek if he is watching probably has a script running that can tell us the answer for sure right now so wait are you not logged in because i see uncast votes on your screen no you vote and cast on that i only cast in the first round i i did only cast in the first round because you told me to vote for myself and i had previously abstained and then i read that if you wanted to abstain the rest you just don’t vote so you can’t abstain the rest and that is an option yes that is technically what i’ve done that’s my understanding that’s what i’ve done now, but i guess i could go vote for the people you could i mean why not why not i don’t know indeed, that’s just my brain because you don’t want them to get the other seat.
[58:47] No, I had, I had you and I had multiple people definitely reach out to me and say, Hey, you should definitely vote for yourself. Go, go do that. Well, you should. Yes. Yes. And I, and I have, I just maybe need to go vote for some other people. Okay. Um,
[59:02] Well, that’s where we’re at. And the voting’s been open for, what, nine days now? Something like that? Yeah. The 15th, I think, is when it closes. That sounds about right. Yeah. The 15th at 6 o’clock UTC. Yeah.
[59:17] So, everyone else who has voting karma, get out there. Vote for your 8.5 release managers. I am not telling you that you should vote for Joe. But if you did vote for Joe, that is a thing that you could. It is definitely a thing you could do. And I would appreciate it. It’s an option. I don’t know. I think even if I lose, I’m going to ask and be like, hey, can I just shadow and see what this is all about and see what all you’re doing? And maybe I’ll have, maybe that’ll give me a leg up in the 8.7 release manager.
[59:44] Well, you mentioned you were looking at like the infrastructure bits. Yeah. I don’t know. Are release managers still using the Docker container that like Davey made for 8.1 and then I adapted, no, sorry, 7.1 and then I adapted and then we used. Are people still using Docker containers? I actually don’t know how to read this. I don’t know. I’ll have to read the playbook.
[01:00:08] It’s been a hot minute.
[01:00:12] Oh, there is a, I believe I’m also contractually obligated to read this sports ball update. Yeah, I was just going to move on to that one. Well, if you want to read it, you go right ahead. Well, you know, since Eric isn’t here, I’m sure that he is very concerned about the progress of the San Diego Padres and how they’re doing since he was last able to appear on the podcast. And I looked at the 2026 season, and there’s 12 games in there. They’re currently six for six, but if you look at the first half of the season, the six games leading up to when you and I liberated this stream, four losses, two wins. That is under the Eric and John leadership. Now, if you look at the six episodes since Operation PHP Podcast Freedom, it’s been, what was it, 50-50? No, it’s been four wins, two losses. So if eric really wants the padres to take the trophy cup and or pennant this year uh then i think the best thing he could do is just stay away that’s just
[01:01:24] not that’s science yeah i mean science yeah yeah yeah i had to put my sports ball hat on it says it says i hope this email finds you at a hockey game my sister got this for me because my sister and i are about to go to chicago for a couple hockey games and a baseball game so yeah yeah i have i have been to exactly two professional sports ball games in my life um not not just baseball but like any i went to a dodgers game in the 80s uh dodgers versus uh giants could not tell you who won um but i know that my aunt really liked the uh sf giants and uh my dad really liked the la dodgers. And so somebody won. And the other one was a Cubs-White Sox game at Wrigley Field with my sister last year, no, two years ago. That was a fun game. That’s awesome. That’s one of the things we’re planning on doing, most likely. So yeah, I think there’s a game Sunday that we’re going to try to go to. And neither of us are very big baseball fans. We’re big Blackhawk fans.
[01:02:30] I grew up watching them, and she grew up with me watching the Blackhawks. So we’re going to go see the Blackhawks And Sarah’s made the best argument for me to retire from my podcasting career.
[01:02:42] I think everybody would appreciate that. No, I’m sorry. We all miss you, Eric. Without Eric, we wouldn’t have a podcast to hijack. Unless we hijacked the PHP roundtable. Well, Eric is a mentor when it comes to hijacking podcasts. He just sort of like picks them up. Like, I’m going to buy this magazine company so I get a podcast. I’m going to convince Sammy, who hasn’t done an episode of Roundtable in ages, to give me his podcast. But yes, I agree. We should bring the Roundtable back.
[01:03:16] I don’t have mine handy.
[01:03:19] These elephants just came out of back in storage. They were in my suitcase. Oh, they poofed back up nicely. On the latest flight. Yes. They pooped. They’re very poofy. Yeah. I mean, this one could maybe stand a loose little weight, but… I don’t have an architect elephant here yet, unfortunately. I have five. I have five elephants here. That sounds low for you, for what I know about your collection. I mean, considering… And one behind you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have this one here. I have this one here. I have this one here. And…
[01:03:57] Others yeah chris said eric let him and mike lewis on a podcasting too which is either good or bad depending on uh your liking of the podcast and i think i think eric let him let them do their own podcast just because eric couldn’t fit another podcast into his weekly schedule,
[01:04:13] oh that’s what’s going to happen if eric gives up on this one he’s going to go start bothering uh chris and constantly now well they should have him they should have him on their podcast I mean, he is a developer. And they have the more popular podcast anyway.
[01:04:35] Just gonna let that one sit for a minute that one just soak it up yeah let that one sit in the air for a minute just forgetting where i have my nuts set yes um all right is there anything else we want to talk about we covered our sports update we bashed the ai machine uh we we talked about internals we talked about there was one topic left on there but it was the last minute ad so i don’t really know how much we’re going to cover it and we have hit an hour anyways i think we’re probably fine honestly we can we can save that for when eric inevitably decides that uh he’s got too much of a man for to come back so all right fair enough uh oh and apparently chris has invited him to the alive and kicking good he’s been out six for two weeks he needs to prove that he is one alive and two proof of life not on a steamer now now here’s the question is eric going to make an appearance on that podcast before john is going to make an appearance on that podcast.
[01:05:34] I wonder if they have they invited john or have they snubbed john yeah what’s up chris john you too good for john i’m i’m john can’t come on your podcast i’m pretty sure my episode with them is still labeled ben ramsey because i filled in for ben ramsey who couldn’t make it one and i don’t think they i don’t think they ever changed the thumbnail or the description or thing so you go watch that ben ramsey episode it’s me well eric was ben ramsey for a while too wasn’t uh chris says he invited him okay good okay fantastic my prediction my prediction is that john is going to get there before eric okay and i’m mostly making that prediction falsely because i honestly think i think it’s going to be eric but i’m trying to like egg him in to taunt eric into doing it? Yeah.
[01:06:26] Does something here on a Tuesday. That’s fair. Now, is that redacted because you don’t know or is it redacted because you’re sworn to secrecy?
[01:06:35] I don’t know that he’s sworn to any company secrecy. If he’s sworn to secrecy, it may not be a company-wide.
[01:06:42] Maybe personal secrecy. I am not aware of any secrets that may or may not have been sworn.
[01:06:51] Did we just get spam? Yeah. That looks like spam. It’s not great. People in the Discord, write things so this disappears off the stream. And somebody banned that person.
[01:07:04] Yes I have I have done those things I don’t know if it’s gonna oh look at that oh nope there we go,
[01:07:13] might be on might be on from discord but it’s not so on screen uh Sarah’s going to be on the third episode before either didn’t turn up yeah that’s probably true because I am an attention you know, um an attention seeker I was going to throw other words in there I’m like no let’s just don’t push that.
[01:07:33] All right anything else last statements comments suggestions wisecracks before we call it call it done call it a show uh Thank you for putting up with me being tired and therefore far more chaotic than I normally would be. I did try to medicate before this, but meds don’t work very well when I’m tired. I appreciate you doing this right after the transatlantic flight. Definitely appreciate it. And Eric and John appreciate it too as well. I’m certain they’ve told me. Well, and not only that, not only was last night the first proper night of sleep I got after my flight, But today I went apartment hunting and wound up walking seven or eight kilometers over some hailey terrain. So I’m actually really exhausted. Well, that should help with the sleep schedule.
[01:08:19] But Eric’s got a little cold.
[01:08:24] All right. Thank you, everybody, for joining us. We’ll see you next time if our hack holds out. This time next week, you may see Eric and John. We’ll see. Thanks for being here. this has been php podcast the official podcast of php architect the industry’s leading tech magazine and publisher focused on php and web development subscribe today at phparch.com to see what the leaders in the community and industry are talking about.
| Air date | April 9, 2026 |
|---|---|
| Hosted by | Joe Ferguson, Sara Golemon |
| Guest(s) |
